I know there is a good list or 2 in chaos, there are so many options, but I am starting to think that they just might not fit my play-style.
Heldrakes are awesome, but can't carry an army by themselves.
It looks like, to really be effective, armies need allies, and there aren't any I really like for Chaos (it looks like the ally well with necron air, which is the only army I have none of at all - I had a 3rd edition ground army, but traded it for credit to buy Chaos)
I like armies with maneuverability and firepower, and my chaos list, with the zombies, don't really have either. This doesn't mean that I can't make a maneuverable or firepower heavy list, and I will try to do it, but I am thinking about going back to blood angels for a while, and then rolling into the new space marines.
Showing posts with label Chaos. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Chaos. Show all posts
Sunday, April 21, 2013
Saturday, April 20, 2013
2000 Chaos vs Orks
2000 points, Purge the Alien.
Chaos - Typhus
2x20 Zombies
1x21 Zombies
3x10 CSM (all marks of nurgle, 2 squads with double plasma, 1 squad with a flamer and missile launcher)
3x2 Obliterators with mark of Nurgle
Aegis Defense line with Quad-Gun
Orks - Ghazghkul
Warboss with mega armor
2x29 Shoota Boys
3x15 Lootas
3 Battle Wagons with Supa-Kannons (forgeworld?)
Aegis defense line (no gun)
Chaos went first, no night fighting. Typhus was with Zombies in middle. All obliterators were deep-striking (the battle wagons were armor 14, so shooting lascannons at armor 14 with a 4+ cover save seemed like a bad idea, although in hindsight, this bit me in the ass - more later).
Chaos Turn 1 - Killed some lootas, moved up.
Ork Turn 1 - Supa Kannons killed some marines and zombies, but with the 4+ defense works going through the deployment zone, the kannons didn't do much most of the game, other than lure my obliterators into giving up some kill points.
Chaos Turn 2 - 1 Dragon and 2 squads of oblits come in, and stick right were I placed them. The dragon hits a unit of lootas and breaks them, 6 inches from the edge of the board, and only ran 5". The obliterator squads each double fire a side shot on the closest battle wagon - the first squad rolls snake eyes, and the other 2 got 1 hit, which was saved.
Orks Turn 2 - One of the units of lootas shoot the dragon down. Only 1 penetrating hit, and the dragon explodes. This game was not all about dice, the list had some weaknesses, and I made some tactics mistakes, but there were 3 critical dice rolls that turned what would have been a close game into a massacre - this was the first one, 15 loota shots exploding a dragon. The rest of ork shooting didn't do much, the obliteratiors made most of their saves.
Chaos Turn 3 - Other Obliterators and Dragon come on. I flame and attack the lootas, trying to break them, and I do break another unit, which ran 4", but the edge of the board was 5" away. I do break the first unit of lootas a second this time, and they run 2", still not off the board (but they don't rally the next turn, and finally run off the board).
Ork Turn 3 - Another unit of lootas (that had just rallied) fired 10 shots, and killed my dragon - this was the second critical roll). Gazgul, the warboss, and the shoota boys charge Typhus and the zombies. I thought this fight would go better. He declared Waaah!, so he had a 2+ invuln save, so I used the zombie sgt to fight in Gazgul's challenge, thinking that Thypus would clean up, but in the end, he only killed 2 orks, and then failed 3 of 4 look out sirs against powerclaws, and died (this was the third critical roll that I failed). One of my obliterators get charged by other units of boys, and die (the powerklaw killed both of them)
Chaos Turn 4 - By not things are looking grim, I only have 1 kill point, both dragons, and my warlord are gone, and none of them accounted for themselves, or even soaked enough fire to have been valuable as a fire magnet. I can still roll the backfield if my oblits kick in, there are alot of soft targets for oblits, but this wasn't their day. I charge the unit of boys, and I flame some lootas. The rest of Typhus's zombies die.
Orks Turn 4 - Gazgul moves up, but his unit doesn't make the charge through cover. The Oblits kill some orks, but the poweclaw kills one of them.
Chaos Turn 5 - I can't stop throwing good after bad, and throw my other oblit unit in to help against the boys. I kill some more orks, and then lose the last oblit from the other squad.
Ork 5 - Orks kill the last oblits, gazgul's squad kills a unit of CSM
Chaos 6 - The game is over now, but I try to kill gazgul, I do one wound.
Orks 6 - Gazgul declares a charge against my back CSM, but fails the charge.
Thoughts - While most of the game, I rolled really well, when it really mattered, the dice went against me hard, and I lost my 3 biggest hitters before they had a chance to make a difference. Dice you can't control though, so what could I have done different?
1. Even though the dice went abysmal in that I failed 3 of 4 LOS, and then failed all 3 invulnerable saves, it was very unlikely that he was going to survive 3 orks with powerclaws, even 1 at a time, since his weapon was unwieldy, and they would have all still gotten their attacks in - so I should have stayed back and shot them some more.
2. I dropped obliterators near the trucks, but then didn't kill them. They made very little difference in the game, but they would have been 3 kill points - I thought the lootas would be a softer target, but it didn't work out that way - they kept failing leadership rolls, and then stopping 1" from the edge of the board. I'm not sure that standing back and shooting at the trucks would have done much good, but they could have focused fire on gazgul's group.
3. Maybe there were too many zombies. They were there for holding objectives, but in a non objective game, they didn't really contribute anything, other than absorbing shots from lootas and the Supa Kannons, which is something I guess.
I was going to use this list at a small tournament, next week, but it got crushed so badly, that I am thinking about doing something much different, but then I won't have a chance to test it.
Chaos - Typhus
2x20 Zombies
1x21 Zombies
3x10 CSM (all marks of nurgle, 2 squads with double plasma, 1 squad with a flamer and missile launcher)
3x2 Obliterators with mark of Nurgle
Aegis Defense line with Quad-Gun
Orks - Ghazghkul
Warboss with mega armor
2x29 Shoota Boys
3x15 Lootas
3 Battle Wagons with Supa-Kannons (forgeworld?)
Aegis defense line (no gun)
Chaos went first, no night fighting. Typhus was with Zombies in middle. All obliterators were deep-striking (the battle wagons were armor 14, so shooting lascannons at armor 14 with a 4+ cover save seemed like a bad idea, although in hindsight, this bit me in the ass - more later).
Chaos Turn 1 - Killed some lootas, moved up.
Ork Turn 1 - Supa Kannons killed some marines and zombies, but with the 4+ defense works going through the deployment zone, the kannons didn't do much most of the game, other than lure my obliterators into giving up some kill points.
Chaos Turn 2 - 1 Dragon and 2 squads of oblits come in, and stick right were I placed them. The dragon hits a unit of lootas and breaks them, 6 inches from the edge of the board, and only ran 5". The obliterator squads each double fire a side shot on the closest battle wagon - the first squad rolls snake eyes, and the other 2 got 1 hit, which was saved.
Orks Turn 2 - One of the units of lootas shoot the dragon down. Only 1 penetrating hit, and the dragon explodes. This game was not all about dice, the list had some weaknesses, and I made some tactics mistakes, but there were 3 critical dice rolls that turned what would have been a close game into a massacre - this was the first one, 15 loota shots exploding a dragon. The rest of ork shooting didn't do much, the obliteratiors made most of their saves.
Chaos Turn 3 - Other Obliterators and Dragon come on. I flame and attack the lootas, trying to break them, and I do break another unit, which ran 4", but the edge of the board was 5" away. I do break the first unit of lootas a second this time, and they run 2", still not off the board (but they don't rally the next turn, and finally run off the board).
Ork Turn 3 - Another unit of lootas (that had just rallied) fired 10 shots, and killed my dragon - this was the second critical roll). Gazgul, the warboss, and the shoota boys charge Typhus and the zombies. I thought this fight would go better. He declared Waaah!, so he had a 2+ invuln save, so I used the zombie sgt to fight in Gazgul's challenge, thinking that Thypus would clean up, but in the end, he only killed 2 orks, and then failed 3 of 4 look out sirs against powerclaws, and died (this was the third critical roll that I failed). One of my obliterators get charged by other units of boys, and die (the powerklaw killed both of them)
Chaos Turn 4 - By not things are looking grim, I only have 1 kill point, both dragons, and my warlord are gone, and none of them accounted for themselves, or even soaked enough fire to have been valuable as a fire magnet. I can still roll the backfield if my oblits kick in, there are alot of soft targets for oblits, but this wasn't their day. I charge the unit of boys, and I flame some lootas. The rest of Typhus's zombies die.
Orks Turn 4 - Gazgul moves up, but his unit doesn't make the charge through cover. The Oblits kill some orks, but the poweclaw kills one of them.
Chaos Turn 5 - I can't stop throwing good after bad, and throw my other oblit unit in to help against the boys. I kill some more orks, and then lose the last oblit from the other squad.
Ork 5 - Orks kill the last oblits, gazgul's squad kills a unit of CSM
Chaos 6 - The game is over now, but I try to kill gazgul, I do one wound.
Orks 6 - Gazgul declares a charge against my back CSM, but fails the charge.
Thoughts - While most of the game, I rolled really well, when it really mattered, the dice went against me hard, and I lost my 3 biggest hitters before they had a chance to make a difference. Dice you can't control though, so what could I have done different?
1. Even though the dice went abysmal in that I failed 3 of 4 LOS, and then failed all 3 invulnerable saves, it was very unlikely that he was going to survive 3 orks with powerclaws, even 1 at a time, since his weapon was unwieldy, and they would have all still gotten their attacks in - so I should have stayed back and shot them some more.
2. I dropped obliterators near the trucks, but then didn't kill them. They made very little difference in the game, but they would have been 3 kill points - I thought the lootas would be a softer target, but it didn't work out that way - they kept failing leadership rolls, and then stopping 1" from the edge of the board. I'm not sure that standing back and shooting at the trucks would have done much good, but they could have focused fire on gazgul's group.
3. Maybe there were too many zombies. They were there for holding objectives, but in a non objective game, they didn't really contribute anything, other than absorbing shots from lootas and the Supa Kannons, which is something I guess.
I was going to use this list at a small tournament, next week, but it got crushed so badly, that I am thinking about doing something much different, but then I won't have a chance to test it.
Monday, April 15, 2013
Chaos v Orks - 2000 points
Well, I played 2000 points against orks last week, I started to take pictures, but then I forgot, so I think that all I have is the initial set up.
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| Overall Board |
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| Chaos Side |
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| Orks |
Orks had 3 units of lootas (2 in trucks), a unit of nob bikers with a biker boss and medic, gazgul and 30 boys, and 2 or 3 fighter flyers (I think 3).
The game is Emperors will, and we were playing long table, first turn was night fighting.
Orks T1 - Not knowing what to do with the zombies, the bikers actually moved away from the front line, to support the mob of boys (my oblits and termies were deep-striking). He moved his trucks up and his lootas shot some zombies.
Chaos T1 - Moved zombies up - they got in the way of the CSM - I meant them to be a screen, but they quickly became an obstacle because of the way I deployed them.
Orks T2 - The bikers were still in the backfield. His lootas killed some more stuff. 2 of his planes came on, and he made sure that they were out of range of my gun (I put it too far back), and shot some CSM, but nothing serious.
Chaos T2 - I deep striked some oblits and the terminators with lord in front of loota trucks, my dragons came on, and the flamer killed a lot of a unit of lootas, making them run, while my autocannon pinned the nob bikers (until we realized they couldn't be pinned). Between my termies, 1 unit of oblits, and my autocannon, I killed both trucks containing lootas, giving me first blood.
Orks T3 - The bikes decided to come back to the front, but they have too far to go to charge this turn. Lootas shoot, his flyer shoots.
Chaos T3 - One of my terminators is dead, so my lord falls back into the zombie squad, and I have the terminators assault a loota squad, I shoot, flame and vector strike the other 2, so two of the loota squads are running away with less than 5 people, and 1 is wiped out. I try to deepstrike my remaining oblits too close, and they scatter into the bikes, and back into reserve.
Orks T4 - The bikes hit my terminators, and massacre them - as expected. 2 of his flyers go off the board, the other one comes on, and he mis-calculates the range, my quad-gun brings it down. Both of his units of lootas rally, and he pumps all his loota shots, and boyz shots into my dragons, and brings one of them down.
Chaos T4 - I try to charge the bikes with the zombies, but roll terrible, like 3 inches to assault through cover. My oblits land near his shoota boys with gazgul.
Ork 5 - His flyers come back on, and kill my other dragon. He split his biker boss and charges the 2 remaining CSM in the far left squad (the other CSM squad is still trying to get around zombies to shoot at lootas), while the rest of his bikes charge Typhus and about 16 zombies. The Boss takes a wound in overwatch, from a plasma gun, and then takes a pistol to the face, dying before he gets to attack. Typhus loses several zombies, and kills several orks, activating his force weapon. Gazgul declared the charge (he was going to attack with all of the orks, but right before he ended his movement phase I told him I deep-striked my oblits there to lure his orks off the objective, so he seperated Gazgul. Gazgul took some wounds, but killed both oblits.
Chaos 5 - Typhus kills the rest of the bikers, with 2 zombie wounds to spare. Gazgul, caught in the open, takes as much fire-power as I can spare, which enough to do the last wound needed to kill him.
Game ended, Chaos 5 (First blood, slay the warlord, objective), and Orks 3 (objective).
The game was slow until turn 4, because the Ork player plays defensively, and zombies take a long time to cross the long board (especially when they can't run through area terrain), but everything did what it needed to.
Thoughts - Zombies did well. Had the bikes charged right away, I might have lost the zombies before Typhus had a chance to support him. I will probably start him in zombies from now on, probably the first row and then, once it takes too many losses, shift to the second wave (which will be right behind the first). The zombies are a great tar pit against a lot of units, but, according to some quick math hammer, they were only going to last 2 combats against the bikers, which means that the bikes would be free on his turn - not ideal.
The terminators are probably out. 3 with combi meltas cost more than 2 oblits, and have less total wounds, and less fire power.
Typhus.is.a.psyker. I went 4 turns before I remembered this, and started using his powers, which were awesome against the bikers, although I don't know if they made the difference, since the were still obliterating zombies.
I think I am going back to the flamer on the second dragon. The auto cannon was good, and it would have pinned 2 units (it pinned some lootas too), but with 6 oblits and a quad gun, I think I need more anti-troop firepower than anti-air / anti-vehicle.
CSM with mark of nurgle did fine. I have no complaints, except I am probably going to give the rear detachment a longer ranged weapon - like a missile launcher.
Saturday, October 20, 2012
Power of Chaos
I just played a 2000 game with DK against Chaos. Although I was winning, I ended up being tables on turn 6. We both thought that the Demon Prince of Nurgle had FNP and +1 Toughness, so He would have died the first time my DK punched him (so I might not have been tabled), but this isn't about that, because it doesn't change the fact that one demon prince and one heldrake destroyed 5-6 units of marines by themselves. This is about building lists that can deal with that kind of power.
Since this isn't a battle report, I'm not going to go turn by turn, but just the general themes. By the end turn 2 (I went first), we both thought the game was over - I had 2 optional KP in relic, and I had decimated most of his units, but my opponent wanted to keep playing, to test out the other units (the lord on the bike rolled horribly, and died to DK, which probably shouldn't have happened.)
When his demon came in on turn 2 and flew to my backfield, I thought, no problem. I shot it, and did a wound, and made it crash, then I charged it with a terminator inquisitor and a 5 man strike squad - not the killiest thing in the game, but lots of demonbane weapons... that never got to go. He had the black mace and, being a monstrous creature, had slam (ap 2). This means that at initiative 8, he did 11 AP 2 wounds, wiping out the squad. On his turn, the demon wiped out another squad, and then got tied up with both my dreadknights for the rest of the game (which would have killed him the first turn had we realized he was T 5).
So - what to do about Demon Princes, who can kill whole squads of power armor (and maybe even terminator armor) in one turn? We only have 1 model with a Storm Shield, although even he is probably not making 11 saves. They don't have grenades, so the best thing to do is going to be make them charge you through cover, then your demon bane weapons have a chance of doing their job. Maybe psycotroke grenades need to make a come back. Dread Knights are skill good against them - if they survive long enough to attack, but if they fly, they can make can make it difficult for the Dread Knight to catch them in melee. Full size units (no combat squads) might also make sure I get a chance to take a swing at the demon.
The Heldrake - I knew when I first read the codex that these were going to be game changers, I see no reason not to take 3 of these, but at least 2, in any competitive army. Granted, I was combat squaded, in order to have more units able to go for the objective, and most combat squads had been whittled down to 2 or 3 guys, but the heldrake killed 3 combat squads in 4 turns. Until there is a faq, apparently torrent flamer doesn't have an arc of fire although this made absolutely no difference in our game - with only 3 guys, its hard to spread them out so that all 3 won't fit under a template, and then it's wound on 2, no armor or cover save. Other than having more anti air - keeping units of 10 will help against the flamer - but that is still only 1 heldrake, and I'm going to take at least 2 in any Chaos list I make, so I am almost going to HAVE to take something other than psycannons and a prayer to shoot down enemy aircraft.
We are more than a match for cultist marines, and cultists - so just need to think of a way to keep air defense alive - thinking a bastion and crusaders....
Since this isn't a battle report, I'm not going to go turn by turn, but just the general themes. By the end turn 2 (I went first), we both thought the game was over - I had 2 optional KP in relic, and I had decimated most of his units, but my opponent wanted to keep playing, to test out the other units (the lord on the bike rolled horribly, and died to DK, which probably shouldn't have happened.)
When his demon came in on turn 2 and flew to my backfield, I thought, no problem. I shot it, and did a wound, and made it crash, then I charged it with a terminator inquisitor and a 5 man strike squad - not the killiest thing in the game, but lots of demonbane weapons... that never got to go. He had the black mace and, being a monstrous creature, had slam (ap 2). This means that at initiative 8, he did 11 AP 2 wounds, wiping out the squad. On his turn, the demon wiped out another squad, and then got tied up with both my dreadknights for the rest of the game (which would have killed him the first turn had we realized he was T 5).
So - what to do about Demon Princes, who can kill whole squads of power armor (and maybe even terminator armor) in one turn? We only have 1 model with a Storm Shield, although even he is probably not making 11 saves. They don't have grenades, so the best thing to do is going to be make them charge you through cover, then your demon bane weapons have a chance of doing their job. Maybe psycotroke grenades need to make a come back. Dread Knights are skill good against them - if they survive long enough to attack, but if they fly, they can make can make it difficult for the Dread Knight to catch them in melee. Full size units (no combat squads) might also make sure I get a chance to take a swing at the demon.
The Heldrake - I knew when I first read the codex that these were going to be game changers, I see no reason not to take 3 of these, but at least 2, in any competitive army. Granted, I was combat squaded, in order to have more units able to go for the objective, and most combat squads had been whittled down to 2 or 3 guys, but the heldrake killed 3 combat squads in 4 turns. Until there is a faq, apparently torrent flamer doesn't have an arc of fire although this made absolutely no difference in our game - with only 3 guys, its hard to spread them out so that all 3 won't fit under a template, and then it's wound on 2, no armor or cover save. Other than having more anti air - keeping units of 10 will help against the flamer - but that is still only 1 heldrake, and I'm going to take at least 2 in any Chaos list I make, so I am almost going to HAVE to take something other than psycannons and a prayer to shoot down enemy aircraft.
We are more than a match for cultist marines, and cultists - so just need to think of a way to keep air defense alive - thinking a bastion and crusaders....
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