The last of the potential BA scoring units (barring special scenario rules) is the Sanguinary Guard. I have never actually played with them, but I still go over how I would use them, and how I would equip them.
First, we have to define the roles that they fit into. Before I started this article, I thought I would not take them as troops because they were too expensive. Then I realized that 5 of them is 200 points, plus the cost on Dante. I figure if you didn't take Dante, you would take a librarian with a jump pack (about same capability - Captain is probably a little closer, but you are probably not taking him). Dante costs about 100 points more than the librarian, so if you took Dante to make the Guard scoring, you would have to divide those 100 points by the number of SG squads that you took (making the total cost of 5 more like 220-225 points). So 5 Sanguinary Guard costs the same as 10 assault marines, with 2 flamers, led my a sgt with a power sword and combat shield. Both of these shots can absorb 90 non-plasma, non-ap 2 or 3 shots.
This makes them actually very comparable to Assault marines. In shooting, 1 SG = 2 marines, so the 5 marines vs 10 doesn't matter too much. In assault, the SG all have power weapons, and are immune to most power weapons, so they are more combat-y there. In fact, they only place SG really hurts is against AP 2 and 1 weapons (plasma guns, vindicators, etc). 5 plasma wounds will hurt an assault squad, they will push the SG of the table.
On the other hand, the SG is another unit (like DC) where non-sergeants can take power fists (which means they cannot be blocked in challenges), and they don't lose any attacks by doing it, which could make them decent terminator hunters (maybe something like 3 with swords and 2 with Fists)?
Their roles are very similar to the Assault Marines roles (at least the ones that matter).
1. They can't take a rhino or razorback, and their weapons are still only range 12, so they are completely unsuitable for any back-field objective holding.
2. Running across the board. They are the same as Assault marines here, just as durable, and just as vulnerable to massed fire.
3. Jump in / Disruption. They are even more expensive than jump troops, so I would not be taking any chances trying to get into infernus pistol range (unless the unit was going to drop in with Dante). They don't have real flamers, and I probably wouldn't get hand flamers because they are pretty weak). Overall, they don't rock in this role, because the ranged weapons available to them aren't disruptful enough (unless you took 5 plasma pistols)
4. In an Assault Vehicle. Same as assault marines. Honestly, I like this better for SG than for Assault marines, because SG are SO MUCH better at hand to hand than shooting, that they really cannot fulfill their potential without getting into hand to hand (unless they are equipped as with plasma pistols or infernous pistols. They would have to take the stormraven, since land raiders can't carry jump troops, which is still putting a lot of expensive eggs in 1 basket.
Honestly, I still don't think I like SG in the role of scorer, unless it is to grab an objective in the last turn. There aren't enough of them - 5 SG might be equal to 10 Assault Marines in their ability to survive and kill, but 10 marines can combat squad and hit two targets, or split so that 1 unit covers the other (who has a relic), etc, at least I don't think I would make an army where they were my only scorers; more like fast terminators who happen to have the ability to score.
As for gear options - I think I have already covered it - Infernous pistol for "walkers" and plasma pistols for droppers, if I upgrade the weapons at all - if I am dropping a unit with Dante, I'd give them a few more infernous pistols, otherwise I would probably skip it (unless I was going for the plasma drop squad)
Masks - OK. They are like pinning, nice if it happened, but unless you have a way to lower leadership, this isn't likely to happen enough to pay for itself.
Getting tired, but banner - don't like it. We're already fearless, and the stuff that isn't has ATSKNF. Occasionally it could come in handy, but the points are better spend elsewhere
Showing posts with label Scoring. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Scoring. Show all posts
Monday, August 6, 2012
Assault Marines
So to continue with my review of BA scoring units, I will be discussing the Assault Marines. In 5th, these, in a free rhino or cheap razorback, were our go to scoring units. With 6th edition, everyone has abandoned the vehicles, based on perception that vehicles are no longer safe, and that you have to get out to score anyway. I haven't done math-hammer, or test games, although I might by the end of this article, so I don't know if this is a knee-jerk reaction, or if this is how the game will be for the rest of 6th.
As to the Marines themselves. They have the base marine stat-line, with lots of options, although some of them are moderately expensive for what they do. As always, how they are equipped, and how we use them, depends on what role we assign them. I know a lot of this is pretty basic to a marine player, but I wanted to be as complete as possible, partially to benefit new players (my brother wants to start playing as soon as he can afford an army), and partially to clarify things I already knew:
1. Cheap scoring: For 100 points, you can put 5 of them in a rhino. This unit can sit on or near the objective until turn 5, and then act a screen (maybe even line of sight blocker). With new line of sight rules, you should be able to hide at least 2-3 marines from all angles, so that the enemy will be forced to explode your rhino in order to get a shot. This unit should be able to survive 1 round of shooting, especially if your other units have been taking the enemy shooters apart for 5 turns.
2. Less Cheap, more useful scoring : For 150 points, you can put 5 marines in a razorback with a las cannon. This might make the marines more of a target, but will let them contribute to the fight. It is true that concentrated fire can easily kill a razorback in a turn, so take a couple, and stay way back. By turn 2, he should have enough other things to worry about (although you may have to deal with flyers way back there, as well as outflanking attacks). You could of course keep the heavy bolter for cheaper, but there are a lot more things that can kill razorbacks inside of 36" (like heavy bolters). On turn 5, jump out and use razor to screen, as above.
3. Back field objective holders, no vehicle: Don't do this. These guys contribute nothing to the war at all. Their pistols won't reach mid-field (or barely will), and all of the their special weapons are equally limited in terms of range. You would be better off taking 5 scouts with cloaks and sniper rifles, and then automatically go to ground whenever someone shoots at them.
4. Assault Marines: This is the standard, jump across the board and assault targets as appropriate. You will usually get the charge, and your high level of mobility will let you pick targets at will (so that you might actually get to use your infernus pistol at 3") Equip for melee, or anti-vehicle, or both. The advantage is you will usually get the charge. The disadvantage is that if the enemy is trying to avoid melee (by lining up more than 24" away) you could get shot for at least 2 rounds before you get to combat. Depending on what is shooting you, this could severely limit you viability as a melee threat.
5. Harassment Unit: This is my favorite way to use Assault marines. Give them jump packs, and use Descent of Angels to drop them into enemy lines on turn 2. With 2 squads of these, combat squaded into 4 5-man squads, you can cause a lot of trouble for you opponent. 5 Marines will not smash very many units in hand to hand, but they will generally survive a few turns (obviously not against terminators, but against "normal" stuff. In groups of 5, with DoA, you only need to drop about 7 inches away (8 if you want to be 100% save). The reason you want to get so close is because you want to use melta guns and flamers, to maximize the amount of damage you do the turn you come in.
The advantage to the harassment style, is that you get to do damage that the enemy cannot stop. He can't shoot you until you come on the board, so you can deliver that 1 critical attack where ever it needs to be. If you have reserve vehicles, this unit is great for clearing the way. Drop down behind an Agis defense line and flamer it clear, drop next to some hydro cannons, and take them out. Once you have completed the mission, if you are pretty shot up, use your mobility to escape the death star that may come after you, and position yourself to claim an objective. If you survive enemy shooting mostly intact (and if you have 4 combat squad, some of them should), assault something. You might not be able to kill that Dev squad or those 14 lootas in 1 turn, but you should survive long enough to keep them from shooting for at least 1 turn, and forcing enemy units into roles they weren't chosen for is huge hindrance for you opponent.
6. Vehicle assault: I won't address Rhino or Razor back assault, because that is just not good for them. It is just like dropping in (in terms of getting shot up after getting out of the vehicle), without the flexibility of being able to strike weak spots across the board.
Without going into strengths and weaknesses of the vehicles themselves, I will only discuss them here in their ability to fill this role.
Stormraven - earliest you will be able to charge in turn 3. Resistant to shooting, but a lucky hit will ruin your unit. If I was going to use one, I would think about coming in hover mode and moving flat out. This reduces you chance of removing big threats with your flyer, but it means that you can still move about 40" without losing everything to 1 lucky shot. Even then, I would probably not use a stormraven to deliver a unit of assault marines unless I was also delivering a dread to support them, otherwise I would use a landraider.
Landraider - Armor 14 is hard to kill at a range, and once you are in melta range, you have already delivered your cargo. Also, as a dedicated transport to Assault Marines, it is not many more points than a stormraven. With a flat out move on turn 1, then moving 6" and unloading 6" on turn 2, you can give your marines a very real chance of charging into enemy deployment zone on turn 2.
I was considering the TL las cannon razorback idea, but seeing it is only 20 points cheaper than 10 tactical marines (with a missile launcher), makes me think I would probably not use it.
I would probably only use tactical marines as role 4 and 5, maybe 6 (although I'd probably rather use elite units) and maybe 2 (although with allies, I could get scoring units with the same, or more, fire power for cheaper).
Equipment options:
Flamer and Meltagun - both Great choices, depending on what you expect to face. In an all comers list, take 1 of each per unit (or 1 unit with 2 flamers, and 1 unit with 2 meltaguns) that can be combat squaded as needed. You will lose an attack, but I think it's worth it.
Hand Flamer - OK. I think the +1 strength is worth the attack. Since your flamers have to be in the front to shoot (since your template can't hit anything else), they are usually the first shooting casualty anyway, so make their shooting count, and don't worry about how many melee attacks they will have (because the answer is probably 0).
Plasma gun, plasma pistol - Good. On the Sgt, I would say the plasma pistol is good choice, as he can use it to snipe targets on the charge (and you want the sgt to have as many attacks as possible - not that he can take plasmagun anyway). For Rank and File, I think the plasmagun is better. Yes you lose an attack, but if you are going to buy the most expensive upgrade available, get as much use from it as you can. As Teq becomes more "it", I have thought about adding a plasma squad (2 plasma guns and gunslinging sgt with plasma pistols. Dropping 6-8" away and shooting 6 plasma shots into MeQ or TeQ could be game changing.
Infernus Pistol - Good, only if you are not dropping in. With a 6" range (3" melta), it would require you to take a major risk to ensure the use of your pistol the turn you drop in, and since you will probably be assaulted the next turn, those points will be wasted if you don't.
For the SGT, I've already discussed the ranged weapons - IF I upgraded the ranged weapon, I would take a plasma pistol in dropping in, or Infernus pistol if moving across the board.
Naked - Good - For melee, it is perfectly viable to leave him with no upgrades, and use him to absorb power weapon hits in challenges (18 points for a meatshield that will protect the rest of the squad from enemy super killer)
Power sword - Good. Still extra attack - may not win challenge, but at least has a chance. If he does win, that power sword will help too.
Claws - OK - I don't think they offer enough to a SGT to be worth losing an attack. (Against a character with lots of base attacks and high WS, the re-roll to wounds might be worth it, but the Assault Sgt is neither of those things).
Power fist and Thunder - Bad-Good hammer will never get a chance to swing. However, if you were going to move across the board, and have control over what combats you are in (a choice you don't really get when you DOA in), the hammer and fist could serve a purpose (tank hunting).
Stormshield -OK- With 1 wound and average stats, I don't think I would spend 20 points for a SGT to get a stormshield. There could be times when the stormshield saves the day, but 20 points will make the SGT lose an attack, and will not make him anymore likely to survive a round with a real combat character. (and I think paying more for an upgrade that the cost of the model itself is counter-intuitive. - In fact, maybe there is a rule-of-thumb in there somewhere, like a character should not be upgraded more than 10% of his base cost, or something like that)
Combat shield. Good - for 5 points, it won't save the day as often as a stromshield, but when it does save they day, you won't yourself asking if it was worth the points. Equally,
Melta Bombs - Great. Take out buildings, monsters, dreads, and vehicles for 5 points. I always take these for all of my SGTs. If I need the points, I may drop them from time to time (they aren't THAT much better than krak grenades in most of these cases), but they offer so much flexibility, for so cheap, that they are my first upgrade every time.
As to the Marines themselves. They have the base marine stat-line, with lots of options, although some of them are moderately expensive for what they do. As always, how they are equipped, and how we use them, depends on what role we assign them. I know a lot of this is pretty basic to a marine player, but I wanted to be as complete as possible, partially to benefit new players (my brother wants to start playing as soon as he can afford an army), and partially to clarify things I already knew:
1. Cheap scoring: For 100 points, you can put 5 of them in a rhino. This unit can sit on or near the objective until turn 5, and then act a screen (maybe even line of sight blocker). With new line of sight rules, you should be able to hide at least 2-3 marines from all angles, so that the enemy will be forced to explode your rhino in order to get a shot. This unit should be able to survive 1 round of shooting, especially if your other units have been taking the enemy shooters apart for 5 turns.
2. Less Cheap, more useful scoring : For 150 points, you can put 5 marines in a razorback with a las cannon. This might make the marines more of a target, but will let them contribute to the fight. It is true that concentrated fire can easily kill a razorback in a turn, so take a couple, and stay way back. By turn 2, he should have enough other things to worry about (although you may have to deal with flyers way back there, as well as outflanking attacks). You could of course keep the heavy bolter for cheaper, but there are a lot more things that can kill razorbacks inside of 36" (like heavy bolters). On turn 5, jump out and use razor to screen, as above.
3. Back field objective holders, no vehicle: Don't do this. These guys contribute nothing to the war at all. Their pistols won't reach mid-field (or barely will), and all of the their special weapons are equally limited in terms of range. You would be better off taking 5 scouts with cloaks and sniper rifles, and then automatically go to ground whenever someone shoots at them.
4. Assault Marines: This is the standard, jump across the board and assault targets as appropriate. You will usually get the charge, and your high level of mobility will let you pick targets at will (so that you might actually get to use your infernus pistol at 3") Equip for melee, or anti-vehicle, or both. The advantage is you will usually get the charge. The disadvantage is that if the enemy is trying to avoid melee (by lining up more than 24" away) you could get shot for at least 2 rounds before you get to combat. Depending on what is shooting you, this could severely limit you viability as a melee threat.
5. Harassment Unit: This is my favorite way to use Assault marines. Give them jump packs, and use Descent of Angels to drop them into enemy lines on turn 2. With 2 squads of these, combat squaded into 4 5-man squads, you can cause a lot of trouble for you opponent. 5 Marines will not smash very many units in hand to hand, but they will generally survive a few turns (obviously not against terminators, but against "normal" stuff. In groups of 5, with DoA, you only need to drop about 7 inches away (8 if you want to be 100% save). The reason you want to get so close is because you want to use melta guns and flamers, to maximize the amount of damage you do the turn you come in.
The advantage to the harassment style, is that you get to do damage that the enemy cannot stop. He can't shoot you until you come on the board, so you can deliver that 1 critical attack where ever it needs to be. If you have reserve vehicles, this unit is great for clearing the way. Drop down behind an Agis defense line and flamer it clear, drop next to some hydro cannons, and take them out. Once you have completed the mission, if you are pretty shot up, use your mobility to escape the death star that may come after you, and position yourself to claim an objective. If you survive enemy shooting mostly intact (and if you have 4 combat squad, some of them should), assault something. You might not be able to kill that Dev squad or those 14 lootas in 1 turn, but you should survive long enough to keep them from shooting for at least 1 turn, and forcing enemy units into roles they weren't chosen for is huge hindrance for you opponent.
6. Vehicle assault: I won't address Rhino or Razor back assault, because that is just not good for them. It is just like dropping in (in terms of getting shot up after getting out of the vehicle), without the flexibility of being able to strike weak spots across the board.
Without going into strengths and weaknesses of the vehicles themselves, I will only discuss them here in their ability to fill this role.
Stormraven - earliest you will be able to charge in turn 3. Resistant to shooting, but a lucky hit will ruin your unit. If I was going to use one, I would think about coming in hover mode and moving flat out. This reduces you chance of removing big threats with your flyer, but it means that you can still move about 40" without losing everything to 1 lucky shot. Even then, I would probably not use a stormraven to deliver a unit of assault marines unless I was also delivering a dread to support them, otherwise I would use a landraider.
Landraider - Armor 14 is hard to kill at a range, and once you are in melta range, you have already delivered your cargo. Also, as a dedicated transport to Assault Marines, it is not many more points than a stormraven. With a flat out move on turn 1, then moving 6" and unloading 6" on turn 2, you can give your marines a very real chance of charging into enemy deployment zone on turn 2.
I was considering the TL las cannon razorback idea, but seeing it is only 20 points cheaper than 10 tactical marines (with a missile launcher), makes me think I would probably not use it.
I would probably only use tactical marines as role 4 and 5, maybe 6 (although I'd probably rather use elite units) and maybe 2 (although with allies, I could get scoring units with the same, or more, fire power for cheaper).
Equipment options:
Flamer and Meltagun - both Great choices, depending on what you expect to face. In an all comers list, take 1 of each per unit (or 1 unit with 2 flamers, and 1 unit with 2 meltaguns) that can be combat squaded as needed. You will lose an attack, but I think it's worth it.
Hand Flamer - OK. I think the +1 strength is worth the attack. Since your flamers have to be in the front to shoot (since your template can't hit anything else), they are usually the first shooting casualty anyway, so make their shooting count, and don't worry about how many melee attacks they will have (because the answer is probably 0).
Plasma gun, plasma pistol - Good. On the Sgt, I would say the plasma pistol is good choice, as he can use it to snipe targets on the charge (and you want the sgt to have as many attacks as possible - not that he can take plasmagun anyway). For Rank and File, I think the plasmagun is better. Yes you lose an attack, but if you are going to buy the most expensive upgrade available, get as much use from it as you can. As Teq becomes more "it", I have thought about adding a plasma squad (2 plasma guns and gunslinging sgt with plasma pistols. Dropping 6-8" away and shooting 6 plasma shots into MeQ or TeQ could be game changing.
Infernus Pistol - Good, only if you are not dropping in. With a 6" range (3" melta), it would require you to take a major risk to ensure the use of your pistol the turn you drop in, and since you will probably be assaulted the next turn, those points will be wasted if you don't.
For the SGT, I've already discussed the ranged weapons - IF I upgraded the ranged weapon, I would take a plasma pistol in dropping in, or Infernus pistol if moving across the board.
Naked - Good - For melee, it is perfectly viable to leave him with no upgrades, and use him to absorb power weapon hits in challenges (18 points for a meatshield that will protect the rest of the squad from enemy super killer)
Power sword - Good. Still extra attack - may not win challenge, but at least has a chance. If he does win, that power sword will help too.
Claws - OK - I don't think they offer enough to a SGT to be worth losing an attack. (Against a character with lots of base attacks and high WS, the re-roll to wounds might be worth it, but the Assault Sgt is neither of those things).
Power fist and Thunder - Bad-Good hammer will never get a chance to swing. However, if you were going to move across the board, and have control over what combats you are in (a choice you don't really get when you DOA in), the hammer and fist could serve a purpose (tank hunting).
Stormshield -OK- With 1 wound and average stats, I don't think I would spend 20 points for a SGT to get a stormshield. There could be times when the stormshield saves the day, but 20 points will make the SGT lose an attack, and will not make him anymore likely to survive a round with a real combat character. (and I think paying more for an upgrade that the cost of the model itself is counter-intuitive. - In fact, maybe there is a rule-of-thumb in there somewhere, like a character should not be upgraded more than 10% of his base cost, or something like that)
Combat shield. Good - for 5 points, it won't save the day as often as a stromshield, but when it does save they day, you won't yourself asking if it was worth the points. Equally,
Melta Bombs - Great. Take out buildings, monsters, dreads, and vehicles for 5 points. I always take these for all of my SGTs. If I need the points, I may drop them from time to time (they aren't THAT much better than krak grenades in most of these cases), but they offer so much flexibility, for so cheap, that they are my first upgrade every time.
Friday, August 3, 2012
Efficiency of Tactical Marines
Last month I reviewed Scouts, so to continue the troop series, I will now talk about tactical marines. Before 6th edition, I never took tactical marines. 5 Assault marines in a cheap razorback (or free rhino) gave me more points for other things. Now that you have to get out the vehicle, I have started taking tactical marines again. I actually haven't done any math-hammer yet (but I will), it is entirely possible that 5 assault marines hiding in razorback for 4 turns and then getting out is better, and more efficient after all (yes they will get shot, but how much enemy firepower will the absorb, and the vehicles are practically free), but for now....
The Blood Angel Tactical marines are the same as pretty much every other tactical marine squad, except there is a 1 in 6 chance that they are fearless. While fearless rocks this edition, it doesn't matter a lot for objective camping tactical marines; as long as you make sure they are 12.1" from the edge of the board, they will rally and be able to resume their task.
This brings me to tactics of tactical marines. A unit cannot really be evaluated without considering what you are going to ask of it.
1. Camping Back Objectives - The traditional use of tactical marines. Drop them in the backfield, and shoot anything that comes close. This is a job that over-laps with one of the uses of Scouts. A lot of people use scouts in this role, because they are cheaper, and people are trying to save points - but lets look at the costs: A scout with a cammo cloak costs the same as a tactical marine. While the first 5 scouts are 15 points cheaper than the first 5 tacticals, by the time you add a missle launcher for 10 points, you are saving 5 points by taking scouts.
So for 5 points more, you get a unit with BS 4, with an AS 3 most of the time, instead a unit with BS 3, with a save of 4+ (armor and cover), but keep in mind that the tacticals are still going to have cover save of 5+. The Scouts have longer range (with sniper rifles), but the tacticals are more deadly at close range and melee, and if you have troops sitting on an objective, they are eventually going to be at close range to the enemy.
2. Mid-Field Control - Tactical Marines are good for mid-field control for the same reason that the same reason they are good at camping back field objectives - they are durable, and get more dangerous the closer the enemy gets, and can hold their own in melee. From the middle of the board, their 24" range will offer them a lot of targets, and the enemy generally will not be able to ignore them to go for your back-field.
3. Enemy deployment zone invasion - This is a new use for BA tactical marines. Generally, if you want marines in the enemy deployment zone, you take jump troops. This unit is there to support those troops. They load 10 marines into a transport, and rush the enemy. On turn 1, our rhino's can move 24" (although I would probably only go 12", depending on how far back the enemy deploys). So turn 1, move to middle of the board (11-12" from enemy deployment). Turn 2, move 6", then unload troops 6" closer. By now you should be in rapid fire range on enemy. By itself, 1 unit is not a huge threat, but imagine 3 units of tactical marines rapid-firing into the enemy's deployment zone, while your assault marines are landing nearby to flame things and set up charges. Since combat squads can ride in the same vehicle, you can even have 1 CS with MM going after vehicles, while the flamer or plasma gun goes after the troops.
The only "set back" to this plan, is that you need to take multiple units of tactical squads, each with a rhino, and rhinos for our tactical squads are more expensive than anyone else's (because they are fast, even though fast doesn't help us here, because we don't want the enemy to be able to charge our rhinos). You are almost losing a whole tactical squad for 3 transports.
I mentioned equipping the tacticals. I personally prefer MM and Flamer, as both choices are free. If our missile launchers get flakk missiles, then I will probably swap out the MM for a ML. A lot of people like plasma guns, and if you are going to leave the marines in the back or middle field, I can see where it would be useful, especially if everyone starts foot-slogging terminators across the board. That being said, I like the free versatility provided by the flamer. Too often, the enemy gets troops to my objectives, so having the ability to flame them before charging, or getting the free hits when they do charge is good for me (additionally, I have never taken a plasma weapon that did not kill its user by the end of a game). So my preferences aside, I will talk about each weapon option.
Flamer - Great. Its Free. Free hits against chargers. Ignores cover (if you are defending or attacking an objective, you are probably doing it through cover). Less useful for back field defenders, as it won't get used.
Meltagun - Good. It is a decent weapon no matter where you put it. Up front, good for killing Meqs, parked vehicles, characters. In the middle, it makes it even more difficult for you opponent to just go around you. In the back it is the least useful, but you will still occasionally get something in the backfield that you will want melta for. Downside - although cheap, it is not free. The melta guy is often the first to die, because making sure he is close enough to get the 12" shot often makes him the first casualty to enemy shooting (although this is more likely user error). The biggest reason I don't take the melta gun on tacticals is because by the time tactical marines are withing 12", they can charge with melta and krak grenades and usually get the job done.
Plasmagun - Good. Everyone is making a big deal out of plasma, because of how dangerous 2+ saves are because of the change to power weapons, but I don't see how that effects shooting. Very few ranged infantry weapons had AP2, and that hasn't changed. If you weren't using plasma before, there is not really a reason to use it now - weight of fire still kills 2+ at a range, just like always. Again, I am not a big fan of plasma because for me it always explodes, and I always fail my same. But, as more people make MEQ and TEQ foot-lists, plasma might start being worth the points / risk.
Heavy Bolter - OK. I consider the heavy bolter as a vehicle mounted weapon. It is not much better than a boltgun, especially inside 12". Str 5 can glance a lot of vehicles of flyers, but just barely, and it won't happen enough to be worth it (especially now that 1 glance won't neutralize a vehicle like it did before). There is nothing wrong with the heavy bolter, it just isn't as good as the other free options available to tactical squads.
MM - Great. Its Free, it has the same range as a bolt gun, and is as good or better at popping MEQs and TEQs on foot. It is also good for popping vehicles (of course) at a range, and has the best chance of a snapshot taking down a flyer in 1 hit..
Missile Launcher - Great. It's Free. It has a long range, so you have some threat over a large area. It is decent for anti-horde and anti-MEQ, as well as popping most vehicle. It may eventually get anti-aircraft capability.
Plasma Cannon - OK. Great against MEQs and TEQs, especially of they are Deep Striking nearby. however, it is a small template, so if they spread out it has limited effectiveness. The scatter could also threaten your own nearby support units. You risk "gets hot!", and it is the only weapon tactical marines can take that DOES NOT get to snapshot on the move.
Las Cannon - Good. It is not free, but it has the longest range, and the highest strength. If you were going to camp an objective in the backfield, this would be a fine choice. The only reason it's not Great, is because it is only slightly better than the missile launcher, which is free, but if you know that you are going to need that extra punch - because you are like to face TEQ, Landraiders, etc, then there is nothing wrong with taking a Las Cannon.
Upgrades for the SGT - These are a lot more situational, and preference based, but I will still offer thoughts on each of them:
Chain Sword - Eh. A long range support unit would be better off with a boltgun than a pistol and sword, as it will hurt the unit's primary mission of providing fire-support (I know you could keep the boltgun and the sword - but what's the point?) If you were going to be close up to enemy, and worried about your melee performance, then it would be ok, but again, just ok.
Stormbolter - Good. If you have 3 extra points, and don't plan on being in melee, there is no reason not to take this - although I would take it on other characters first.
Combi-Weapons - Situational, I never take them. To me, they are like taking missile on rhinos; occasionally, 1 special weapon shot will come in handy, but I would rather spend the points on something that contributed more consistently.
Plasma Pistol - Ok. With the character ability to choose their target on a 6, it could come in handy, but if you are that close, you are about to be in melee (probably in a challenge), and anything that makes a SGT more expensive, and doesn't help him win the challenge (thereby protecting those extra points), is Meh in my book.
Power Weapon - Ok-Good. If you plan on being in the backfield, then you are better off with a boltgun. Although the power weapon could take the place of a pistol, and be more useful than a chainsword in that situation, its a decent chuck of "upgrade" points that you hope don't make their points back (because if the sword turns out to be worth it, it means a unit you didn't want in combat was in combat). In a unit that is going to be mid-field forward, the power weapon and a pistol is a strong choice. You have a decent chance of winning challenges against other SGTS and non-melee oriented characters. Since the SGT can be singled out in combat, I suggest the power sword over the other options. Anything worth fighting in a challenge is at least armour 3, but with 1 wound and no invuln save, if you are going last in the challenge, you are probably not going at all (so no axe)
Power fist - Ok. Besides being more expensive then the power axe, it suffers the same problem - you are probably never going to get to use it. For those rare times when you "need" the extra strength, against vehicles, dread, monsters, etc, you can probably use a grenade, at initiative, instead.
Melta Bomb - Great. In most cases it can do what you'd want a power fist to do, for a lot less points, and it won't take away attacks when you don't need it.
Teleport Homer - Situational (does it work in a vehicle?) If you were pushing forward, into enemy deployment zone, and wanted to drop terminators instead of assault marines, I would take this (as the bigger risk of scatter, combined with density of units in area make deep striking there much more risky). If it does not work in a vehicle, I guess on turn 1 I would drive 6", then unload 6". I guess you could then run another (average) 3". Then, on turn 2, the terminators could land 6" away without scatter - basically giving you a 21" scatter free zone - unless your enemy realizes what you are doing, and you don't have enough other things on the board to draw his fire. Actually I think this might be a pretty strong tactic for some other armies, but to make it worthwhile you would probably need multiple units of terminators, and I would rather take assault marines, since they are scoring for us.
(although I might math-hammer it to see if maybe adding 1 squad of assault terminators to support my assault marines might not be worth it).
The Blood Angel Tactical marines are the same as pretty much every other tactical marine squad, except there is a 1 in 6 chance that they are fearless. While fearless rocks this edition, it doesn't matter a lot for objective camping tactical marines; as long as you make sure they are 12.1" from the edge of the board, they will rally and be able to resume their task.
This brings me to tactics of tactical marines. A unit cannot really be evaluated without considering what you are going to ask of it.
1. Camping Back Objectives - The traditional use of tactical marines. Drop them in the backfield, and shoot anything that comes close. This is a job that over-laps with one of the uses of Scouts. A lot of people use scouts in this role, because they are cheaper, and people are trying to save points - but lets look at the costs: A scout with a cammo cloak costs the same as a tactical marine. While the first 5 scouts are 15 points cheaper than the first 5 tacticals, by the time you add a missle launcher for 10 points, you are saving 5 points by taking scouts.
So for 5 points more, you get a unit with BS 4, with an AS 3 most of the time, instead a unit with BS 3, with a save of 4+ (armor and cover), but keep in mind that the tacticals are still going to have cover save of 5+. The Scouts have longer range (with sniper rifles), but the tacticals are more deadly at close range and melee, and if you have troops sitting on an objective, they are eventually going to be at close range to the enemy.
2. Mid-Field Control - Tactical Marines are good for mid-field control for the same reason that the same reason they are good at camping back field objectives - they are durable, and get more dangerous the closer the enemy gets, and can hold their own in melee. From the middle of the board, their 24" range will offer them a lot of targets, and the enemy generally will not be able to ignore them to go for your back-field.
3. Enemy deployment zone invasion - This is a new use for BA tactical marines. Generally, if you want marines in the enemy deployment zone, you take jump troops. This unit is there to support those troops. They load 10 marines into a transport, and rush the enemy. On turn 1, our rhino's can move 24" (although I would probably only go 12", depending on how far back the enemy deploys). So turn 1, move to middle of the board (11-12" from enemy deployment). Turn 2, move 6", then unload troops 6" closer. By now you should be in rapid fire range on enemy. By itself, 1 unit is not a huge threat, but imagine 3 units of tactical marines rapid-firing into the enemy's deployment zone, while your assault marines are landing nearby to flame things and set up charges. Since combat squads can ride in the same vehicle, you can even have 1 CS with MM going after vehicles, while the flamer or plasma gun goes after the troops.
The only "set back" to this plan, is that you need to take multiple units of tactical squads, each with a rhino, and rhinos for our tactical squads are more expensive than anyone else's (because they are fast, even though fast doesn't help us here, because we don't want the enemy to be able to charge our rhinos). You are almost losing a whole tactical squad for 3 transports.
I mentioned equipping the tacticals. I personally prefer MM and Flamer, as both choices are free. If our missile launchers get flakk missiles, then I will probably swap out the MM for a ML. A lot of people like plasma guns, and if you are going to leave the marines in the back or middle field, I can see where it would be useful, especially if everyone starts foot-slogging terminators across the board. That being said, I like the free versatility provided by the flamer. Too often, the enemy gets troops to my objectives, so having the ability to flame them before charging, or getting the free hits when they do charge is good for me (additionally, I have never taken a plasma weapon that did not kill its user by the end of a game). So my preferences aside, I will talk about each weapon option.
Flamer - Great. Its Free. Free hits against chargers. Ignores cover (if you are defending or attacking an objective, you are probably doing it through cover). Less useful for back field defenders, as it won't get used.
Meltagun - Good. It is a decent weapon no matter where you put it. Up front, good for killing Meqs, parked vehicles, characters. In the middle, it makes it even more difficult for you opponent to just go around you. In the back it is the least useful, but you will still occasionally get something in the backfield that you will want melta for. Downside - although cheap, it is not free. The melta guy is often the first to die, because making sure he is close enough to get the 12" shot often makes him the first casualty to enemy shooting (although this is more likely user error). The biggest reason I don't take the melta gun on tacticals is because by the time tactical marines are withing 12", they can charge with melta and krak grenades and usually get the job done.
Plasmagun - Good. Everyone is making a big deal out of plasma, because of how dangerous 2+ saves are because of the change to power weapons, but I don't see how that effects shooting. Very few ranged infantry weapons had AP2, and that hasn't changed. If you weren't using plasma before, there is not really a reason to use it now - weight of fire still kills 2+ at a range, just like always. Again, I am not a big fan of plasma because for me it always explodes, and I always fail my same. But, as more people make MEQ and TEQ foot-lists, plasma might start being worth the points / risk.
Heavy Bolter - OK. I consider the heavy bolter as a vehicle mounted weapon. It is not much better than a boltgun, especially inside 12". Str 5 can glance a lot of vehicles of flyers, but just barely, and it won't happen enough to be worth it (especially now that 1 glance won't neutralize a vehicle like it did before). There is nothing wrong with the heavy bolter, it just isn't as good as the other free options available to tactical squads.
MM - Great. Its Free, it has the same range as a bolt gun, and is as good or better at popping MEQs and TEQs on foot. It is also good for popping vehicles (of course) at a range, and has the best chance of a snapshot taking down a flyer in 1 hit..
Missile Launcher - Great. It's Free. It has a long range, so you have some threat over a large area. It is decent for anti-horde and anti-MEQ, as well as popping most vehicle. It may eventually get anti-aircraft capability.
Plasma Cannon - OK. Great against MEQs and TEQs, especially of they are Deep Striking nearby. however, it is a small template, so if they spread out it has limited effectiveness. The scatter could also threaten your own nearby support units. You risk "gets hot!", and it is the only weapon tactical marines can take that DOES NOT get to snapshot on the move.
Las Cannon - Good. It is not free, but it has the longest range, and the highest strength. If you were going to camp an objective in the backfield, this would be a fine choice. The only reason it's not Great, is because it is only slightly better than the missile launcher, which is free, but if you know that you are going to need that extra punch - because you are like to face TEQ, Landraiders, etc, then there is nothing wrong with taking a Las Cannon.
Upgrades for the SGT - These are a lot more situational, and preference based, but I will still offer thoughts on each of them:
Chain Sword - Eh. A long range support unit would be better off with a boltgun than a pistol and sword, as it will hurt the unit's primary mission of providing fire-support (I know you could keep the boltgun and the sword - but what's the point?) If you were going to be close up to enemy, and worried about your melee performance, then it would be ok, but again, just ok.
Stormbolter - Good. If you have 3 extra points, and don't plan on being in melee, there is no reason not to take this - although I would take it on other characters first.
Combi-Weapons - Situational, I never take them. To me, they are like taking missile on rhinos; occasionally, 1 special weapon shot will come in handy, but I would rather spend the points on something that contributed more consistently.
Plasma Pistol - Ok. With the character ability to choose their target on a 6, it could come in handy, but if you are that close, you are about to be in melee (probably in a challenge), and anything that makes a SGT more expensive, and doesn't help him win the challenge (thereby protecting those extra points), is Meh in my book.
Power Weapon - Ok-Good. If you plan on being in the backfield, then you are better off with a boltgun. Although the power weapon could take the place of a pistol, and be more useful than a chainsword in that situation, its a decent chuck of "upgrade" points that you hope don't make their points back (because if the sword turns out to be worth it, it means a unit you didn't want in combat was in combat). In a unit that is going to be mid-field forward, the power weapon and a pistol is a strong choice. You have a decent chance of winning challenges against other SGTS and non-melee oriented characters. Since the SGT can be singled out in combat, I suggest the power sword over the other options. Anything worth fighting in a challenge is at least armour 3, but with 1 wound and no invuln save, if you are going last in the challenge, you are probably not going at all (so no axe)
Power fist - Ok. Besides being more expensive then the power axe, it suffers the same problem - you are probably never going to get to use it. For those rare times when you "need" the extra strength, against vehicles, dread, monsters, etc, you can probably use a grenade, at initiative, instead.
Melta Bomb - Great. In most cases it can do what you'd want a power fist to do, for a lot less points, and it won't take away attacks when you don't need it.
Teleport Homer - Situational (does it work in a vehicle?) If you were pushing forward, into enemy deployment zone, and wanted to drop terminators instead of assault marines, I would take this (as the bigger risk of scatter, combined with density of units in area make deep striking there much more risky). If it does not work in a vehicle, I guess on turn 1 I would drive 6", then unload 6". I guess you could then run another (average) 3". Then, on turn 2, the terminators could land 6" away without scatter - basically giving you a 21" scatter free zone - unless your enemy realizes what you are doing, and you don't have enough other things on the board to draw his fire. Actually I think this might be a pretty strong tactic for some other armies, but to make it worthwhile you would probably need multiple units of terminators, and I would rather take assault marines, since they are scoring for us.
(although I might math-hammer it to see if maybe adding 1 squad of assault terminators to support my assault marines might not be worth it).
Thursday, July 26, 2012
Review of Scouts and efficiency
So, I was reading somewhere (probably one of the blogs linked on my page) about how making a list should consider point efficiency. There are several roles you need to fill in an army, scoring, anti-vehicle, etc, and the idea is to study your codex and fill each role as efficiently as possible. The author of the blog said you only compare your units to your own codex (because even if the land speeders are cheaper in another army, you can only work with what you have), however with allies this may not be true. Once you determine who your ally is going to be, you need to see if you can fill some roles more efficiently from that codex. However, for now I am sticking with C:BA, and starting with scoring units. First up is the scout.
Scoring
The first group I am going to look at from C:BA is the scoring units. My rough draft of this post had a lot of spreadsheet math, broken down into lots of details, and points per kill, and stuff like that. Instead of posting all of that, I am going to basically sum up. If I am taking scouts to score, the most important thing for me is that they can stay on the objective, so I am taking 10 scouts, and giving them camo cloaks. This means that the scouts will have 4+ armor save and 4+ cover save. So it would take about 60 boltgun shots fired from MEQs to remove this unit. If a unit had all plasma, there would still be a 4+ save (area terrain + cloak), so it would take 36 plasma shots to wipe them out, or they can go to ground and get a 2+ save by going to ground, which would enable them to be able to absorb 180 boltgun shots or 110 plasma shots. While I wasn't going to do a bunch of match, I think talking about how many points you are paying per absorbed shot is relevant when talking about a scoring unit, so taking the median of 36 and 180, you can absorb about 108 shots for 170 points (my unit has all sniper rifles). This comes out to 170/108, or about 1.57 points per shot absorbed.
Shooting
You want your scoring unit to contribute, so an average unit of 10 scouts with sniper rifles will inflict about 9 unsaved wounds against MEQ in the open over a 5 turn game. This comes out to paying about 18.5 points per wound this unit inflicts.
Melee
If this unit gets charged, it can withstand about 40 melee attacks, or about 4.5 points per wound, which makes it the least efficient scoring unit when it comes to getting charged. What is interesting though, is that this unit is equal to a tactical unit in terms of wounds inflicted on the charge (since the WS 3 will translate to generally hitting on a 4, just like the tac squad), and a scout squad armed with melee weapon is more point efficient on the charge than a squad of assault marines (same number of attacks, still needing 4s to hit and wound, and cheaper).
Disruption
Scouts have outflank, infiltrate, and scout. This gives them a lot of disruption capabilities. Personally, I used to like outflank, but now that you can't attack the turn you come in, I am kind of meh about it, since it isn't really better than DoA; the assault marines have better armor to absorb that round of shooting, and aren't susceptible to being blocked off the board.
Looking at infiltrate and scout, I noticed that you can infiltrate 18" away in the open, then scout move 6", to start the game withing 12" of the enemy, even in line of sight. Since you can not assault first turn if you use either of these abilities, I am not sure what you gain, since scouts aren't great for standing up to charge. I guess if you can get into cover within 12", with shotguns, combi-flamers (or maybe even boltguns), along with a melta bomb for the sgt, you can create enough of a threat that the enemy will have to take a turn to deal with that unit (if you go to ground they probably will have to use a unit to assault you too). If I was going to do this though, I would probably pass on the camo cloaks, and I would probably combat squad the unit into 2 units, on opposite sides of the board from each other, creating 3 fronts for the enemy to deal with. I realize 2 of these fronts are not very dangerous, but the more choices your opponent has to make, the more chances he has to make a mistake (and if he completely ignores them, krak grenades in his backfield will hurt soft targets, and if the scouts are still alive one turn 3, you can throw them at whatever your assault marines are about to charge to suck up the over watch.
Conclusions: I was trying to talk myself out of scouts, as they don't shoot as well as tacticals, outflank is inferior to DoA, and they aren't so much cheaper that tacticals anyway. However, after the disruption paragraph, I may have talked myself into 1 squad (which I would have to buy, since my 10,000
points worth of Marines do not include a single scout.)
Scoring
The first group I am going to look at from C:BA is the scoring units. My rough draft of this post had a lot of spreadsheet math, broken down into lots of details, and points per kill, and stuff like that. Instead of posting all of that, I am going to basically sum up. If I am taking scouts to score, the most important thing for me is that they can stay on the objective, so I am taking 10 scouts, and giving them camo cloaks. This means that the scouts will have 4+ armor save and 4+ cover save. So it would take about 60 boltgun shots fired from MEQs to remove this unit. If a unit had all plasma, there would still be a 4+ save (area terrain + cloak), so it would take 36 plasma shots to wipe them out, or they can go to ground and get a 2+ save by going to ground, which would enable them to be able to absorb 180 boltgun shots or 110 plasma shots. While I wasn't going to do a bunch of match, I think talking about how many points you are paying per absorbed shot is relevant when talking about a scoring unit, so taking the median of 36 and 180, you can absorb about 108 shots for 170 points (my unit has all sniper rifles). This comes out to 170/108, or about 1.57 points per shot absorbed.
Shooting
You want your scoring unit to contribute, so an average unit of 10 scouts with sniper rifles will inflict about 9 unsaved wounds against MEQ in the open over a 5 turn game. This comes out to paying about 18.5 points per wound this unit inflicts.
Melee
If this unit gets charged, it can withstand about 40 melee attacks, or about 4.5 points per wound, which makes it the least efficient scoring unit when it comes to getting charged. What is interesting though, is that this unit is equal to a tactical unit in terms of wounds inflicted on the charge (since the WS 3 will translate to generally hitting on a 4, just like the tac squad), and a scout squad armed with melee weapon is more point efficient on the charge than a squad of assault marines (same number of attacks, still needing 4s to hit and wound, and cheaper).
Disruption
Scouts have outflank, infiltrate, and scout. This gives them a lot of disruption capabilities. Personally, I used to like outflank, but now that you can't attack the turn you come in, I am kind of meh about it, since it isn't really better than DoA; the assault marines have better armor to absorb that round of shooting, and aren't susceptible to being blocked off the board.
Looking at infiltrate and scout, I noticed that you can infiltrate 18" away in the open, then scout move 6", to start the game withing 12" of the enemy, even in line of sight. Since you can not assault first turn if you use either of these abilities, I am not sure what you gain, since scouts aren't great for standing up to charge. I guess if you can get into cover within 12", with shotguns, combi-flamers (or maybe even boltguns), along with a melta bomb for the sgt, you can create enough of a threat that the enemy will have to take a turn to deal with that unit (if you go to ground they probably will have to use a unit to assault you too). If I was going to do this though, I would probably pass on the camo cloaks, and I would probably combat squad the unit into 2 units, on opposite sides of the board from each other, creating 3 fronts for the enemy to deal with. I realize 2 of these fronts are not very dangerous, but the more choices your opponent has to make, the more chances he has to make a mistake (and if he completely ignores them, krak grenades in his backfield will hurt soft targets, and if the scouts are still alive one turn 3, you can throw them at whatever your assault marines are about to charge to suck up the over watch.
Conclusions: I was trying to talk myself out of scouts, as they don't shoot as well as tacticals, outflank is inferior to DoA, and they aren't so much cheaper that tacticals anyway. However, after the disruption paragraph, I may have talked myself into 1 squad (which I would have to buy, since my 10,000
points worth of Marines do not include a single scout.)
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