I got an invitation to contribute to "The Lion's Angels."
KarateKid is a real-life friend of mine; since both of us are fairly sporadic posters, we have decided to combine forces. Another of his friends also recently became a contributor so, hopefully, between us, we will be able to provide more consistent posts.
I am leaving this site up, and maybe a link on the new site, as a sort of archive of old posts, but my new posts will probably be at:
http://lionsangels.blogspot.com/
Tuesday, August 13, 2013
Wednesday, May 8, 2013
Tuning my GK all shunt list part 4 - Wrapping it up
So, I think I have reached the point where I can no longer be productive in thinking about or talking about my shunt list. Only by playing it will I be able to add anything new to the discussion. I have decided on one of the two following lists:
The first one is:
GKGM with psyotroke grenades and incinerator
2x 10 GKSS with 2 Psycannons, 2 hammers, and justifier with halberd
2x 10 GKIS with 2 Psycannons, 2 hammers, and justifier with halberd
3x Dread Knights with heavy incinerator and teleporter
I realize that this list is weak against air, and against 3 dragons I will be forced to throw myself into melee. What I like about this list is that most of my stuff is fast. It can either jump, DS, or teleport - so I can be where I need to be. There is a bonus with the GKIS and the local tournament, because all of the games in the tournament have troops as additional kill points - so normally combat squading to take more objectives means making more potential points for my opponent. With GKIS, I can combat squad both of them (assuming an average grand strategy roll), and have 6 scoring units, while only presenting my enemy with 2 potential bonus points (like I said, still not sure GKIS worth it normally, but with grand strategy, they might be).
The second list has
GKGM with psycotroke grenades and master crafted psycannon
3x 10 GKSS with 2 psycannons, 2 hammers, and justifier with halberd
1 Stromraven with hurricane bolters, psybolt ammo, Assault cannons and MM
3x Dread Knights with heavy incinerator and teleporter
This list takes a flier against air. It also have 3 GKSS and no GKIS. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, GKSS can get where they need with deep strike, and I don't need to be much closer than 24" most of the time, so GKIS, while nice, probably aren't critical - Obviously I'll make the NDK scoring if need be.
I think both of these lists are pretty solid. My favor is leaning toward the top list, hitting hard and dominating the manuever phase, but I think the second one might be a little better against all-comers, because the flyer helps mitigate what might be a hard-counter to the first list.
The first one is:
GKGM with psyotroke grenades and incinerator
2x 10 GKSS with 2 Psycannons, 2 hammers, and justifier with halberd
2x 10 GKIS with 2 Psycannons, 2 hammers, and justifier with halberd
3x Dread Knights with heavy incinerator and teleporter
I realize that this list is weak against air, and against 3 dragons I will be forced to throw myself into melee. What I like about this list is that most of my stuff is fast. It can either jump, DS, or teleport - so I can be where I need to be. There is a bonus with the GKIS and the local tournament, because all of the games in the tournament have troops as additional kill points - so normally combat squading to take more objectives means making more potential points for my opponent. With GKIS, I can combat squad both of them (assuming an average grand strategy roll), and have 6 scoring units, while only presenting my enemy with 2 potential bonus points (like I said, still not sure GKIS worth it normally, but with grand strategy, they might be).
The second list has
GKGM with psycotroke grenades and master crafted psycannon
3x 10 GKSS with 2 psycannons, 2 hammers, and justifier with halberd
1 Stromraven with hurricane bolters, psybolt ammo, Assault cannons and MM
3x Dread Knights with heavy incinerator and teleporter
This list takes a flier against air. It also have 3 GKSS and no GKIS. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, GKSS can get where they need with deep strike, and I don't need to be much closer than 24" most of the time, so GKIS, while nice, probably aren't critical - Obviously I'll make the NDK scoring if need be.
I think both of these lists are pretty solid. My favor is leaning toward the top list, hitting hard and dominating the manuever phase, but I think the second one might be a little better against all-comers, because the flyer helps mitigate what might be a hard-counter to the first list.
Tuning my GK all shunt list part 3.2 Tau
I considered doing a guard detachment, but I don't like it for this list either. It brings me two flyers,and two more troops, both of which are useful, but it doesn't feel like it really synergizes (the HQ and the Troops just sit in the vehicle and hope not to get shot down, if I am going to buy allies, I want to get my points worth) - it just feels thrown in.
The last ally I considered is Tau. While I think that this is pretty solid, I don't actually own any Tau, so I don't know if I'm going to field this, or be able to test it, but of the allies I considered, I think I like this one - additionally, I can see the GK working with the Tau. Of all the Xenos races, they seem the most honorable, and they, like Grey Knights (with demon hosts and Jakaeros) use other races when it benefits them.
Commander +2 Bodyguard - The commander has shield generator and Neuroweb system Jammer, and all 3 of them have 2 missile pods (or twin-linked) and velocity tracker.
a 3 man Xv8 Crisis Team, each with velocity tracker and 2 missile pods (or twin linked)
Kroot Squad with 11 Kroot.
Both teams of battle suits have anti-air capability, but are not wasted if the enemy doesn't bring air. The have jump packs so they can keep up, and fit in with the theme.
The kroot can infiltrate up, and put pressure on the backfield, or act as screening force if need be.
While I like this, it only gives me 3 scoring units, and one of them are the sacrifical kroot - although I will have Grand Strategy to boost my scoring count if need be.
The last ally I considered is Tau. While I think that this is pretty solid, I don't actually own any Tau, so I don't know if I'm going to field this, or be able to test it, but of the allies I considered, I think I like this one - additionally, I can see the GK working with the Tau. Of all the Xenos races, they seem the most honorable, and they, like Grey Knights (with demon hosts and Jakaeros) use other races when it benefits them.
Commander +2 Bodyguard - The commander has shield generator and Neuroweb system Jammer, and all 3 of them have 2 missile pods (or twin-linked) and velocity tracker.
a 3 man Xv8 Crisis Team, each with velocity tracker and 2 missile pods (or twin linked)
Kroot Squad with 11 Kroot.
Both teams of battle suits have anti-air capability, but are not wasted if the enemy doesn't bring air. The have jump packs so they can keep up, and fit in with the theme.
The kroot can infiltrate up, and put pressure on the backfield, or act as screening force if need be.
While I like this, it only gives me 3 scoring units, and one of them are the sacrifical kroot - although I will have Grand Strategy to boost my scoring count if need be.
Monday, May 6, 2013
Tuning my GK all shunt list part 3.1 Necron Allies
So, the first allies I am considering for my GK allies are Necrons. GK/Necron lists seem to do pretty well in tournaments. On the other hand, even though the fluff might support it, I really have a hard time with accepting that Grey Knights would work with Necrons.
Assuming that my Grey Knights would work with Necrons, the next question to answer is, do Necrons add anything to this specific list?
While there are a lot of possible Necron ally lists, the biggest gap in my Shunt list is anti-air, and Necron is the only army that lets me take 3 discrete aircraft. I can take 2 units of warriors, each with Night Scythe, and then a Doom Scythe.
This would give me 2 more scoring units, 3 flyers that can act independently, for both AA and Ground support.
Despite my feelings about Necrons working with Grey Knights, this does fill a hole in the list. On the other hand, I can take a Stormraven for 205 points, with 4 missiles (although 90% they suck, I have sniped HQ with them), a TL assault cannon, and a Multi-Melta.
The Night Scythes are costing me about 195 (65 for the unit + 100 for the Scythe + 30 for 1/3 of the overlord) each, for basically 2 autocannons and 2 scoring units who won't die if the plane blows up.
I already have access to cheap troops, and 10 points is worth a MM, rending, and an extra point of armor (and I save myself the money of buying 3 Necron fliers), so I probably won't go with this incarnation of Necron allies, although I want to note that even though I don't think these Necrons bring anything to my list, they don't take anything away either - I think this would be a pretty competitive list, if I already had some Necrons, and wanted to branch into Grey Knights.
Assuming that my Grey Knights would work with Necrons, the next question to answer is, do Necrons add anything to this specific list?
While there are a lot of possible Necron ally lists, the biggest gap in my Shunt list is anti-air, and Necron is the only army that lets me take 3 discrete aircraft. I can take 2 units of warriors, each with Night Scythe, and then a Doom Scythe.
This would give me 2 more scoring units, 3 flyers that can act independently, for both AA and Ground support.
Despite my feelings about Necrons working with Grey Knights, this does fill a hole in the list. On the other hand, I can take a Stormraven for 205 points, with 4 missiles (although 90% they suck, I have sniped HQ with them), a TL assault cannon, and a Multi-Melta.
The Night Scythes are costing me about 195 (65 for the unit + 100 for the Scythe + 30 for 1/3 of the overlord) each, for basically 2 autocannons and 2 scoring units who won't die if the plane blows up.
I already have access to cheap troops, and 10 points is worth a MM, rending, and an extra point of armor (and I save myself the money of buying 3 Necron fliers), so I probably won't go with this incarnation of Necron allies, although I want to note that even though I don't think these Necrons bring anything to my list, they don't take anything away either - I think this would be a pretty competitive list, if I already had some Necrons, and wanted to branch into Grey Knights.
Saturday, May 4, 2013
Tuning my GK all shunt list part 3 - Allies
So, I am comparing my shunt list to my "should be able to deal with list" and this is what I get:
AV 12 - Psycannons, Storm hammers, dreadknight punch - Check
50 Man Blogs with fearless/ATSKNF - Lots of stormbolter, 3 heavy incerators, DK can also probably
assault if need by, and slow them down - Check
3-5 Rhinos - Psycannons, str 5 storm bolters, dreadknight punch, hammers - Check
Deep Strikings - Warp Quake, the ability to put most of my own army into deepstrike - Check
Invulnerable saves - losts of shots - Check, the most that can be done, short of gimmick power
ADL - 3 shunting heavy incinerators - Check
4 Scoring units - 3-6 (with Grand Strategy) - Check
Flyers - Psycannons needing 6's, ability to shunt / deep strike behind them - Limited
Overall, this list is pretty solid, in terms of tools to deal with whatever comes. If I was going to add allies, I would need to boil this list to its core, to see if allies actually bring anything to the table.
GK Grand Master
2 x 10 GKSS with psybolt ammo, 2 Psycannons, 1 Hammer, Justifier with Halberd.
3x Dreadknights with 2 power fists, personal teleport, heavy incinerator.
____________
1390
This is the core of the army, it is the minimum legal army that has all of the tools of the original list (warp quake, str5 bolters, psycannons, 2-5 Scoring, shunting DK with heavy incinerators). The point of this is to determine if I can spend 610 points better than the original list, or if I should stay pure GK.
Even if I stay all GK, I am probably taking the GKIS squad out, and add a fully buffed Stormraven (Assualt Cannon, MM, Sponsons with Str 5 hurricane bolters) in its place, so what I am really seeing is if I can spend 700 points on allies and do better than adding another GKSS, adding Psycotroke Grenades to Grand Master, and putting him with something like 6 purifiers (5 falchions and a hammer) in a pimped out Stormraven - which gives me some AA and another way to deal with blobs (and someone to put my GM with that can actually fight), and letting my whole army start in reserves except the NDK - hmm, actually I am liking that 610 points a lot, although it means I'm going to have to dig out some hurricane bolters to assemble....
AV 12 - Psycannons, Storm hammers, dreadknight punch - Check
50 Man Blogs with fearless/ATSKNF - Lots of stormbolter, 3 heavy incerators, DK can also probably
assault if need by, and slow them down - Check
3-5 Rhinos - Psycannons, str 5 storm bolters, dreadknight punch, hammers - Check
Deep Strikings - Warp Quake, the ability to put most of my own army into deepstrike - Check
Invulnerable saves - losts of shots - Check, the most that can be done, short of gimmick power
ADL - 3 shunting heavy incinerators - Check
4 Scoring units - 3-6 (with Grand Strategy) - Check
Flyers - Psycannons needing 6's, ability to shunt / deep strike behind them - Limited
Overall, this list is pretty solid, in terms of tools to deal with whatever comes. If I was going to add allies, I would need to boil this list to its core, to see if allies actually bring anything to the table.
GK Grand Master
2 x 10 GKSS with psybolt ammo, 2 Psycannons, 1 Hammer, Justifier with Halberd.
3x Dreadknights with 2 power fists, personal teleport, heavy incinerator.
____________
1390
This is the core of the army, it is the minimum legal army that has all of the tools of the original list (warp quake, str5 bolters, psycannons, 2-5 Scoring, shunting DK with heavy incinerators). The point of this is to determine if I can spend 610 points better than the original list, or if I should stay pure GK.
Even if I stay all GK, I am probably taking the GKIS squad out, and add a fully buffed Stormraven (Assualt Cannon, MM, Sponsons with Str 5 hurricane bolters) in its place, so what I am really seeing is if I can spend 700 points on allies and do better than adding another GKSS, adding Psycotroke Grenades to Grand Master, and putting him with something like 6 purifiers (5 falchions and a hammer) in a pimped out Stormraven - which gives me some AA and another way to deal with blobs (and someone to put my GM with that can actually fight), and letting my whole army start in reserves except the NDK - hmm, actually I am liking that 610 points a lot, although it means I'm going to have to dig out some hurricane bolters to assemble....
Grey Knight Interceptor Squad - Tuning my GK all Shunt list part 2
So, based on my previous posts, my shunt list is looking something like:
GK Grand Master - Sword, Incinerator, Psychotroke Grenades
3x10 GKSS with Psybolt, 2 psycannons, 1 hammer, and Knight with Halberd
1x10 GKIS with Psybolt, 2 psycannons, 1 hammer, and knight with halberd
3x Dreadknights with 2 Power fists, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter
Hmm, GKIS.... Why am I paying so many points for these? Because they can teleport with the Dread Knights, and get right in the enemy's face. The thing is, they have a range of 24", they are not awesome at assault, so they really don't gain very much by being closer than 24", and most times they can make their normal 6" and be within 24" - and anytime I wouldn't be (because the enemy is playing the range game, I can accomplish the same thing by deep striking the GKSS.
If I used Grand Strategy to make them scoring, I could jump them for last turn objective grabbing or I could use them for last turn objective contesting, which gives them some flexibility, and the difference between the GKSS and an identically outfitted GKIS is 60 points, so with Grand Strategy, it might be worth it, otherwise probably not.
GK Grand Master - Sword, Incinerator, Psychotroke Grenades
3x10 GKSS with Psybolt, 2 psycannons, 1 hammer, and Knight with Halberd
1x10 GKIS with Psybolt, 2 psycannons, 1 hammer, and knight with halberd
3x Dreadknights with 2 Power fists, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter
Hmm, GKIS.... Why am I paying so many points for these? Because they can teleport with the Dread Knights, and get right in the enemy's face. The thing is, they have a range of 24", they are not awesome at assault, so they really don't gain very much by being closer than 24", and most times they can make their normal 6" and be within 24" - and anytime I wouldn't be (because the enemy is playing the range game, I can accomplish the same thing by deep striking the GKSS.
If I used Grand Strategy to make them scoring, I could jump them for last turn objective grabbing or I could use them for last turn objective contesting, which gives them some flexibility, and the difference between the GKSS and an identically outfitted GKIS is 60 points, so with Grand Strategy, it might be worth it, otherwise probably not.
Wednesday, May 1, 2013
Tuning my GK all Shunt List, Part 1
So, I took my Shunt List to the tournament, and did pretty well with it, but there were some things that could be better. This is what I had.
ADL with Icaras Las Cannon
2x 1 Inquisitor with Prescience
3x 10 Strike Squads, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons, SGT with Halberd, Psybolt ammo
1x 10 GK Intercept Squad
3x NDK with teleporters and Heavy Incinerators
While the alpha strike worked pretty well, and in several of the games, most of the action took place in my enemy's deployment zone. While this was intentional, it meant that basically almost half of my army was fighting almost all of the enemy's army.
To get more out of my army, I need to either increase the range of the backfield, or I need to not have a backfield.
Moving Everything Up
The 2 GKSS I typically leave behind is are an easy fix - hold them in reserve and deep-strike. This leaves about 195 points (2 inquisitors and an ADL with Icarus Las Cannon) to move up.
195 Points is not enough to add allies, especially since I am going to need a HQ. Since I need mobility to keep up with the rest of my army, I am going to need Terminator armor (for deep-strike), since none of our HQ can take personal teleporters (hey GW, each unit type is supposed to be led by a brotherhood champion, what about GKIS....)
Mordrak - almost enough points for him, and he is an interesting choice because he would give me:
+ Grand Strategy,
+ Another unit of turn 1 punch, along with NDK and GKIS.
+ Psychic communion to help bring all my deep-strike units
- I would have to make big changes to include is retinue though, and without any special weapons, I'm not sure
they are worth it anyway (6 more storm bolters and charge threat are good, but I don't think they represent
400 points of good, and Mordrak without Ghost knights is practically giving away "Slay the Warlord", and
maybe "First Blood" as well.
Brother Captain-Stern is interesting but maybe TOO well-balanced.
+/- Re-roll is nice, giving it enemy is not
+/- Zone of Banishment could be a game changer, or not, but using it is almost certainly a suicide mission
+/- Psychic Communion is still good, won't be able to use it until turn 2, when, hopefully, most things are already
coming
Grey-Knight Grandmaster is probably better then Stern. No gimmicks, but solid performance, with enough points left over to include some war gear.
+ Grand Strategy - same as Mordak - make my NDK(s) scoring...
+/- Psychic Communion - Again, good, but turn 2 is a little late.
+ Cheap enough to add war gear (since there is only 20 points left after buying him, and there is very little I can
add to this list worthwhile for 20 points, may as well spend it on him)
With the sword already giving a 3+ invulnerable save in combat, there is no point upgrading the weapons, so maybe something like:
Grey Knight Grand Master with Psycotroke grenades and Incinerator - 195 Points.
Grey Knight Brother Captain is the same as Grey Knight Grandmaster, but cheaper, and without Grand Strategy. Since there is really no units for 50 points either, it comes down to is - is 25 more points of war gear worth losing the ability to make NDK scoring?
KG Brother Captain with Psycotroke Grenades, Incinerator, Rad Grenades - with digital weapons and master-crafted sword - 195 points, also not bad.
Librarian
+ Psychic Hood to extra protection
+ Mastery Level 2
+/- Can take a teleport beacon, but if he deep-strikes, it won't do much good.
+ By taking Grey Knight powers, which mimic blessings, but are cast during different phases of the turn, so there
is no penalty for deep-striking.
Librarian with Sword, with Might of Titan, Sanctuary, The Shrouding, Vortex of Doom, Warp-Rift. Still 20 points left, lets say master craft the sword, add digital weapons, and 2 Servo Skulls.
Ordo Malleus Inquisitors make the list because they can also wear terminator armor, and can, therefore, deep-
strike with the GKSS.
+ Cheap enough that I can have 2, with Psycannons.
- Weak enough that putting them in forward moving units increases chance of giving enemy "slay the warlord"
2x Inquisitor with Terminator armor, Nemesis Force Hammer, Psycannon, Servo Skulls (3 and 2) = 175 Points. With last 20 points, give all of the Sergeants master crafting on their Halberds.
Of these, I like the Grand-Master, who is a killer, and can make NDK scoring (cool, but I am not sure it is needed, since they can already contest pretty well, but every tool creates options....); the Librarian who kills almost just as well as the Brother-Captain, but adds a different type of utility, and the Inquisitors, who are a little weak, but add 2 psycannons, and 5 servo skulls (since there will be at least 3 deep-striking units) - probably in that order.
This is going to wrap up part 1, which is basically trading in an ADL and slow HQ for a HQ that can keep up with shunting and deep-striking army. Eventually I am also going to think about buffing the list with allies and/or extending the range of the defense line, but both of these ideas will involve a lot more juggling of points (and extending the range of rear support still divides my army into two smaller chunks, so I will probably be looking at allies who can join the GK in the front for this particular army).
Monday, April 29, 2013
Game 3 2000 GK vs Black Templars.
This was crusade (5 objectives), with hammer and anvil deployment. There is even less to tell about this game - by the bottom of turn 2, he had given up.
He had
1x Emperor champion with assault squad in a stormraven
1x Super character with assault squad in landraider
2x Assault Squads in Rhinos
2 land speeders
1x vindicator
All the objectives were in the middle (they were placed after terrain, and they were all placed in no mans land - which makes this the only time the my rear guard GKSS saw action, they crossed the wall on turn 4.
He went first, and by the end of turn 2, I had destroyed his vindicator, his land raider, both land speeders, and had velocity locked his stormraven. The game ended something like 8-0. There was some melee, which lasted a lot longer than I expected it to, since I had all power weaspons, but at the end of 3 game turns of combat, both of our 10 man squads were down to 1 man.
His commander squad occupied all 3 dread knights for the last 3 game turns, but I won that fight, since he needed the unit to hold an objective, and my NDK had already done everything I needed them to.
Overall, in the tournament, the alpha strike and teleporting to the rear was awesome for me. I would have struggled against flyers, and 1 person brought 3 heldrakes, but I didn't end up playing them. I am going to look into allies, to see about making the turn 1 strike even stronger - or maybe increasing the range of the rear base, so that they can support the forward elements.
He had
1x Emperor champion with assault squad in a stormraven
1x Super character with assault squad in landraider
2x Assault Squads in Rhinos
2 land speeders
1x vindicator
All the objectives were in the middle (they were placed after terrain, and they were all placed in no mans land - which makes this the only time the my rear guard GKSS saw action, they crossed the wall on turn 4.
He went first, and by the end of turn 2, I had destroyed his vindicator, his land raider, both land speeders, and had velocity locked his stormraven. The game ended something like 8-0. There was some melee, which lasted a lot longer than I expected it to, since I had all power weaspons, but at the end of 3 game turns of combat, both of our 10 man squads were down to 1 man.
His commander squad occupied all 3 dread knights for the last 3 game turns, but I won that fight, since he needed the unit to hold an objective, and my NDK had already done everything I needed them to.
Overall, in the tournament, the alpha strike and teleporting to the rear was awesome for me. I would have struggled against flyers, and 1 person brought 3 heldrakes, but I didn't end up playing them. I am going to look into allies, to see about making the turn 1 strike even stronger - or maybe increasing the range of the rear base, so that they can support the forward elements.
2000 point GK vs Necrons
This was Dawn of war, the emperor's will. I had same army, my opponent had necrons.
He had 2 annihilation barges,
The walker (necron marker light)
4x20 necron warriors, with 1 overlord in one squad, and lords with rez orbs in each of the others.
This game was very straight forward. I deepstriked again with one the GKSS, and they took some heavy causualties turn 2 and 3, but didn't die until turn 4.
Necrons went first, but I was in cover, so no major damage, a few interceptors and 1 SS guy was all I lost. I jumped everything across the board again, using 1 NDK to hold the necrons on the left flank, while the other 2, a GKSS and GKIS rolled down the right flank.
One of my NDK made crazy saves - even after he was marker lighter, and hit by everything in the enemies army, he took 1 wound. Luckily, all I had to do was charge him off the objectives, so that he had no units to take the objective with, because I couldn't kill 20 necrons with 4+ FNP to save my life. I kept winning by 1, and then waiting for them to finally fail a Leadership roll and run off the table.
Thoughts: My alpha strike plan worked perfectly, in that the entire battle took place in the enemy deployment zone. The only complaint I have is that I had 2 units of GKSS, each with prescient psykers, who never got to shoot (which is close to what happened in first game - until it was too late). 40 re-rolling S5 bolter shots is a pretty scary fire-base, but a waste of points in the enemy can't get within 24" of them.
He had 2 annihilation barges,
The walker (necron marker light)
4x20 necron warriors, with 1 overlord in one squad, and lords with rez orbs in each of the others.
This game was very straight forward. I deepstriked again with one the GKSS, and they took some heavy causualties turn 2 and 3, but didn't die until turn 4.
Necrons went first, but I was in cover, so no major damage, a few interceptors and 1 SS guy was all I lost. I jumped everything across the board again, using 1 NDK to hold the necrons on the left flank, while the other 2, a GKSS and GKIS rolled down the right flank.
One of my NDK made crazy saves - even after he was marker lighter, and hit by everything in the enemies army, he took 1 wound. Luckily, all I had to do was charge him off the objectives, so that he had no units to take the objective with, because I couldn't kill 20 necrons with 4+ FNP to save my life. I kept winning by 1, and then waiting for them to finally fail a Leadership roll and run off the table.
Thoughts: My alpha strike plan worked perfectly, in that the entire battle took place in the enemy deployment zone. The only complaint I have is that I had 2 units of GKSS, each with prescient psykers, who never got to shoot (which is close to what happened in first game - until it was too late). 40 re-rolling S5 bolter shots is a pretty scary fire-base, but a waste of points in the enemy can't get within 24" of them.
2000 point GK vs Blood Angels
This was the first game in the tournament from last post. I had the same GK list from last post/
Blood Angels had:
3 x Attack Bikes (I think there was 1 Heavy Bolter Bike and 2 MM Bikes)
1 x 10 Devestators (4x Missile Launchers)
a ADL with Quad Gun
1 x 10 Scouts
2x StrormRavens - with sponsons
2x Furioso Dreads (1 with double fists, 1 with double claws)
2 x 10 Assualt Squads (each with a furioso priest)
1 Captain with Claw and Artificer armor
It was Vanguard Deployment, Night Fighting, and I had first Turn. I held 1 unit of GKSS in reserve, BA had the assault squads and furiosos on the stormravens, along with the Captain.
There wasn't much to tell on this one. My Dreadknights jumped up and flamed his scouts into oblivion, giving me first blood, then they went on a rampage, killing all three bikes and was in melee with the devestators when his flyers came on. He had shot up the Interceptors, and put some wounds on the dreadknights, but at the end of my turn 3 it was 5 to 0.
On his turn 3, he unloaded one of the flyers and wiped out a GKSS squad and 1 NDK. On turn my turn 4, I killed his last devestator and the stormraven that unloaded. He unloaded the other Stormraven, and assaulted the other 2 GKSS along with both inquisitors.
By the end, the score was 8 to 8 (we both had 7 kp and I had first blood, he had slay the warlord).
Thoughts, this was a much closer game that I thought it was going to be. I should have sacrificed 1 unit of SS, so that he couldn't get 4 KP in 1 turn - all I had to do was stay out of range (hard to do against a Stormraven, but doable). This was a case where I got into the spirit of Purge the Alien - I didn't need anymore KP, so the extra combats could only hurt me, but I kept playing like I was going to annihilation.
I was close to bringing the same army, but decided not to, and it probably worked out well, since his next game, the blood angel character had both flyers shot down with their cargo inside.
Blood Angels had:
3 x Attack Bikes (I think there was 1 Heavy Bolter Bike and 2 MM Bikes)
1 x 10 Devestators (4x Missile Launchers)
a ADL with Quad Gun
1 x 10 Scouts
2x StrormRavens - with sponsons
2x Furioso Dreads (1 with double fists, 1 with double claws)
2 x 10 Assualt Squads (each with a furioso priest)
1 Captain with Claw and Artificer armor
It was Vanguard Deployment, Night Fighting, and I had first Turn. I held 1 unit of GKSS in reserve, BA had the assault squads and furiosos on the stormravens, along with the Captain.
There wasn't much to tell on this one. My Dreadknights jumped up and flamed his scouts into oblivion, giving me first blood, then they went on a rampage, killing all three bikes and was in melee with the devestators when his flyers came on. He had shot up the Interceptors, and put some wounds on the dreadknights, but at the end of my turn 3 it was 5 to 0.
On his turn 3, he unloaded one of the flyers and wiped out a GKSS squad and 1 NDK. On turn my turn 4, I killed his last devestator and the stormraven that unloaded. He unloaded the other Stormraven, and assaulted the other 2 GKSS along with both inquisitors.
By the end, the score was 8 to 8 (we both had 7 kp and I had first blood, he had slay the warlord).
Thoughts, this was a much closer game that I thought it was going to be. I should have sacrificed 1 unit of SS, so that he couldn't get 4 KP in 1 turn - all I had to do was stay out of range (hard to do against a Stormraven, but doable). This was a case where I got into the spirit of Purge the Alien - I didn't need anymore KP, so the extra combats could only hurt me, but I kept playing like I was going to annihilation.
I was close to bringing the same army, but decided not to, and it probably worked out well, since his next game, the blood angel character had both flyers shot down with their cargo inside.
2000 point local tournament, with some less local guests..
There was another local tournament on Saturday, although this time we had some guests from some other local stores. Overall, I got second place - the tournament was based on points,so I never actually got to play the first place guy; I think I could have beat him, based on what I saw (he didn't have the tools to take my list), but he beat some stuff that I probably couldn't have taken (3 Heldrakes).
What was interesting about this tournament is that I got to see some armies I have never seen played before. My last game was against Black Templars (and I see why I probably haven't played them before, they were like ultra marines, but more expensive, and if they had any cool toys, this player didn't take them - other than putting POTMS on a vindicator.
Second place was sisters of battle. I didn't get to see much that final battle (Sisters went into final in second place, so they played the first place necrons), but what I did see was pretty impressive - although they suffered a massive loss (only 2 troop choices in a 5 objective game).
I was planning on bringing Blood Angels, or Marines, but ended up going with Grey Knights, since I couldn't decide on a list for more traditional marines - especially since the Grey Knights solved the army I lost to last game (all deep-striking monstrous creatures), with warp quake and force weapons.
I brought
ADL with Icaras Las Cannon
2x 1 Inquisitor with Prescience
3x 10 Strike Squads, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons, SGT with Halberd, Psybolt ammo
1x 10 GK Intercept Squad
3x NDK with teleporters and Heavy Incinerators
In all three games, I deployed with 2 squads of GKSS behind the ADL (with one model from each squad touching the gun) with an Inquisitor in each squad, and deep striked the last squad of GKSS.
I'll post more details later but, as usual, I forgot to take pictures.
What was interesting about this tournament is that I got to see some armies I have never seen played before. My last game was against Black Templars (and I see why I probably haven't played them before, they were like ultra marines, but more expensive, and if they had any cool toys, this player didn't take them - other than putting POTMS on a vindicator.
Second place was sisters of battle. I didn't get to see much that final battle (Sisters went into final in second place, so they played the first place necrons), but what I did see was pretty impressive - although they suffered a massive loss (only 2 troop choices in a 5 objective game).
I was planning on bringing Blood Angels, or Marines, but ended up going with Grey Knights, since I couldn't decide on a list for more traditional marines - especially since the Grey Knights solved the army I lost to last game (all deep-striking monstrous creatures), with warp quake and force weapons.
I brought
ADL with Icaras Las Cannon
2x 1 Inquisitor with Prescience
3x 10 Strike Squads, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons, SGT with Halberd, Psybolt ammo
1x 10 GK Intercept Squad
3x NDK with teleporters and Heavy Incinerators
In all three games, I deployed with 2 squads of GKSS behind the ADL (with one model from each squad touching the gun) with an Inquisitor in each squad, and deep striked the last squad of GKSS.
I'll post more details later but, as usual, I forgot to take pictures.
Sunday, April 21, 2013
Chaos...
I know there is a good list or 2 in chaos, there are so many options, but I am starting to think that they just might not fit my play-style.
Heldrakes are awesome, but can't carry an army by themselves.
It looks like, to really be effective, armies need allies, and there aren't any I really like for Chaos (it looks like the ally well with necron air, which is the only army I have none of at all - I had a 3rd edition ground army, but traded it for credit to buy Chaos)
I like armies with maneuverability and firepower, and my chaos list, with the zombies, don't really have either. This doesn't mean that I can't make a maneuverable or firepower heavy list, and I will try to do it, but I am thinking about going back to blood angels for a while, and then rolling into the new space marines.
Heldrakes are awesome, but can't carry an army by themselves.
It looks like, to really be effective, armies need allies, and there aren't any I really like for Chaos (it looks like the ally well with necron air, which is the only army I have none of at all - I had a 3rd edition ground army, but traded it for credit to buy Chaos)
I like armies with maneuverability and firepower, and my chaos list, with the zombies, don't really have either. This doesn't mean that I can't make a maneuverable or firepower heavy list, and I will try to do it, but I am thinking about going back to blood angels for a while, and then rolling into the new space marines.
Saturday, April 20, 2013
2000 Chaos vs Orks
2000 points, Purge the Alien.
Chaos - Typhus
2x20 Zombies
1x21 Zombies
3x10 CSM (all marks of nurgle, 2 squads with double plasma, 1 squad with a flamer and missile launcher)
3x2 Obliterators with mark of Nurgle
Aegis Defense line with Quad-Gun
Orks - Ghazghkul
Warboss with mega armor
2x29 Shoota Boys
3x15 Lootas
3 Battle Wagons with Supa-Kannons (forgeworld?)
Aegis defense line (no gun)
Chaos went first, no night fighting. Typhus was with Zombies in middle. All obliterators were deep-striking (the battle wagons were armor 14, so shooting lascannons at armor 14 with a 4+ cover save seemed like a bad idea, although in hindsight, this bit me in the ass - more later).
Chaos Turn 1 - Killed some lootas, moved up.
Ork Turn 1 - Supa Kannons killed some marines and zombies, but with the 4+ defense works going through the deployment zone, the kannons didn't do much most of the game, other than lure my obliterators into giving up some kill points.
Chaos Turn 2 - 1 Dragon and 2 squads of oblits come in, and stick right were I placed them. The dragon hits a unit of lootas and breaks them, 6 inches from the edge of the board, and only ran 5". The obliterator squads each double fire a side shot on the closest battle wagon - the first squad rolls snake eyes, and the other 2 got 1 hit, which was saved.
Orks Turn 2 - One of the units of lootas shoot the dragon down. Only 1 penetrating hit, and the dragon explodes. This game was not all about dice, the list had some weaknesses, and I made some tactics mistakes, but there were 3 critical dice rolls that turned what would have been a close game into a massacre - this was the first one, 15 loota shots exploding a dragon. The rest of ork shooting didn't do much, the obliteratiors made most of their saves.
Chaos Turn 3 - Other Obliterators and Dragon come on. I flame and attack the lootas, trying to break them, and I do break another unit, which ran 4", but the edge of the board was 5" away. I do break the first unit of lootas a second this time, and they run 2", still not off the board (but they don't rally the next turn, and finally run off the board).
Ork Turn 3 - Another unit of lootas (that had just rallied) fired 10 shots, and killed my dragon - this was the second critical roll). Gazgul, the warboss, and the shoota boys charge Typhus and the zombies. I thought this fight would go better. He declared Waaah!, so he had a 2+ invuln save, so I used the zombie sgt to fight in Gazgul's challenge, thinking that Thypus would clean up, but in the end, he only killed 2 orks, and then failed 3 of 4 look out sirs against powerclaws, and died (this was the third critical roll that I failed). One of my obliterators get charged by other units of boys, and die (the powerklaw killed both of them)
Chaos Turn 4 - By not things are looking grim, I only have 1 kill point, both dragons, and my warlord are gone, and none of them accounted for themselves, or even soaked enough fire to have been valuable as a fire magnet. I can still roll the backfield if my oblits kick in, there are alot of soft targets for oblits, but this wasn't their day. I charge the unit of boys, and I flame some lootas. The rest of Typhus's zombies die.
Orks Turn 4 - Gazgul moves up, but his unit doesn't make the charge through cover. The Oblits kill some orks, but the poweclaw kills one of them.
Chaos Turn 5 - I can't stop throwing good after bad, and throw my other oblit unit in to help against the boys. I kill some more orks, and then lose the last oblit from the other squad.
Ork 5 - Orks kill the last oblits, gazgul's squad kills a unit of CSM
Chaos 6 - The game is over now, but I try to kill gazgul, I do one wound.
Orks 6 - Gazgul declares a charge against my back CSM, but fails the charge.
Thoughts - While most of the game, I rolled really well, when it really mattered, the dice went against me hard, and I lost my 3 biggest hitters before they had a chance to make a difference. Dice you can't control though, so what could I have done different?
1. Even though the dice went abysmal in that I failed 3 of 4 LOS, and then failed all 3 invulnerable saves, it was very unlikely that he was going to survive 3 orks with powerclaws, even 1 at a time, since his weapon was unwieldy, and they would have all still gotten their attacks in - so I should have stayed back and shot them some more.
2. I dropped obliterators near the trucks, but then didn't kill them. They made very little difference in the game, but they would have been 3 kill points - I thought the lootas would be a softer target, but it didn't work out that way - they kept failing leadership rolls, and then stopping 1" from the edge of the board. I'm not sure that standing back and shooting at the trucks would have done much good, but they could have focused fire on gazgul's group.
3. Maybe there were too many zombies. They were there for holding objectives, but in a non objective game, they didn't really contribute anything, other than absorbing shots from lootas and the Supa Kannons, which is something I guess.
I was going to use this list at a small tournament, next week, but it got crushed so badly, that I am thinking about doing something much different, but then I won't have a chance to test it.
Chaos - Typhus
2x20 Zombies
1x21 Zombies
3x10 CSM (all marks of nurgle, 2 squads with double plasma, 1 squad with a flamer and missile launcher)
3x2 Obliterators with mark of Nurgle
Aegis Defense line with Quad-Gun
Orks - Ghazghkul
Warboss with mega armor
2x29 Shoota Boys
3x15 Lootas
3 Battle Wagons with Supa-Kannons (forgeworld?)
Aegis defense line (no gun)
Chaos went first, no night fighting. Typhus was with Zombies in middle. All obliterators were deep-striking (the battle wagons were armor 14, so shooting lascannons at armor 14 with a 4+ cover save seemed like a bad idea, although in hindsight, this bit me in the ass - more later).
Chaos Turn 1 - Killed some lootas, moved up.
Ork Turn 1 - Supa Kannons killed some marines and zombies, but with the 4+ defense works going through the deployment zone, the kannons didn't do much most of the game, other than lure my obliterators into giving up some kill points.
Chaos Turn 2 - 1 Dragon and 2 squads of oblits come in, and stick right were I placed them. The dragon hits a unit of lootas and breaks them, 6 inches from the edge of the board, and only ran 5". The obliterator squads each double fire a side shot on the closest battle wagon - the first squad rolls snake eyes, and the other 2 got 1 hit, which was saved.
Orks Turn 2 - One of the units of lootas shoot the dragon down. Only 1 penetrating hit, and the dragon explodes. This game was not all about dice, the list had some weaknesses, and I made some tactics mistakes, but there were 3 critical dice rolls that turned what would have been a close game into a massacre - this was the first one, 15 loota shots exploding a dragon. The rest of ork shooting didn't do much, the obliteratiors made most of their saves.
Chaos Turn 3 - Other Obliterators and Dragon come on. I flame and attack the lootas, trying to break them, and I do break another unit, which ran 4", but the edge of the board was 5" away. I do break the first unit of lootas a second this time, and they run 2", still not off the board (but they don't rally the next turn, and finally run off the board).
Ork Turn 3 - Another unit of lootas (that had just rallied) fired 10 shots, and killed my dragon - this was the second critical roll). Gazgul, the warboss, and the shoota boys charge Typhus and the zombies. I thought this fight would go better. He declared Waaah!, so he had a 2+ invuln save, so I used the zombie sgt to fight in Gazgul's challenge, thinking that Thypus would clean up, but in the end, he only killed 2 orks, and then failed 3 of 4 look out sirs against powerclaws, and died (this was the third critical roll that I failed). One of my obliterators get charged by other units of boys, and die (the powerklaw killed both of them)
Chaos Turn 4 - By not things are looking grim, I only have 1 kill point, both dragons, and my warlord are gone, and none of them accounted for themselves, or even soaked enough fire to have been valuable as a fire magnet. I can still roll the backfield if my oblits kick in, there are alot of soft targets for oblits, but this wasn't their day. I charge the unit of boys, and I flame some lootas. The rest of Typhus's zombies die.
Orks Turn 4 - Gazgul moves up, but his unit doesn't make the charge through cover. The Oblits kill some orks, but the poweclaw kills one of them.
Chaos Turn 5 - I can't stop throwing good after bad, and throw my other oblit unit in to help against the boys. I kill some more orks, and then lose the last oblit from the other squad.
Ork 5 - Orks kill the last oblits, gazgul's squad kills a unit of CSM
Chaos 6 - The game is over now, but I try to kill gazgul, I do one wound.
Orks 6 - Gazgul declares a charge against my back CSM, but fails the charge.
Thoughts - While most of the game, I rolled really well, when it really mattered, the dice went against me hard, and I lost my 3 biggest hitters before they had a chance to make a difference. Dice you can't control though, so what could I have done different?
1. Even though the dice went abysmal in that I failed 3 of 4 LOS, and then failed all 3 invulnerable saves, it was very unlikely that he was going to survive 3 orks with powerclaws, even 1 at a time, since his weapon was unwieldy, and they would have all still gotten their attacks in - so I should have stayed back and shot them some more.
2. I dropped obliterators near the trucks, but then didn't kill them. They made very little difference in the game, but they would have been 3 kill points - I thought the lootas would be a softer target, but it didn't work out that way - they kept failing leadership rolls, and then stopping 1" from the edge of the board. I'm not sure that standing back and shooting at the trucks would have done much good, but they could have focused fire on gazgul's group.
3. Maybe there were too many zombies. They were there for holding objectives, but in a non objective game, they didn't really contribute anything, other than absorbing shots from lootas and the Supa Kannons, which is something I guess.
I was going to use this list at a small tournament, next week, but it got crushed so badly, that I am thinking about doing something much different, but then I won't have a chance to test it.
Monday, April 15, 2013
Chaos v Orks - 2000 points
Well, I played 2000 points against orks last week, I started to take pictures, but then I forgot, so I think that all I have is the initial set up.
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| Overall Board |
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| Chaos Side |
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| Orks |
Orks had 3 units of lootas (2 in trucks), a unit of nob bikers with a biker boss and medic, gazgul and 30 boys, and 2 or 3 fighter flyers (I think 3).
The game is Emperors will, and we were playing long table, first turn was night fighting.
Orks T1 - Not knowing what to do with the zombies, the bikers actually moved away from the front line, to support the mob of boys (my oblits and termies were deep-striking). He moved his trucks up and his lootas shot some zombies.
Chaos T1 - Moved zombies up - they got in the way of the CSM - I meant them to be a screen, but they quickly became an obstacle because of the way I deployed them.
Orks T2 - The bikers were still in the backfield. His lootas killed some more stuff. 2 of his planes came on, and he made sure that they were out of range of my gun (I put it too far back), and shot some CSM, but nothing serious.
Chaos T2 - I deep striked some oblits and the terminators with lord in front of loota trucks, my dragons came on, and the flamer killed a lot of a unit of lootas, making them run, while my autocannon pinned the nob bikers (until we realized they couldn't be pinned). Between my termies, 1 unit of oblits, and my autocannon, I killed both trucks containing lootas, giving me first blood.
Orks T3 - The bikes decided to come back to the front, but they have too far to go to charge this turn. Lootas shoot, his flyer shoots.
Chaos T3 - One of my terminators is dead, so my lord falls back into the zombie squad, and I have the terminators assault a loota squad, I shoot, flame and vector strike the other 2, so two of the loota squads are running away with less than 5 people, and 1 is wiped out. I try to deepstrike my remaining oblits too close, and they scatter into the bikes, and back into reserve.
Orks T4 - The bikes hit my terminators, and massacre them - as expected. 2 of his flyers go off the board, the other one comes on, and he mis-calculates the range, my quad-gun brings it down. Both of his units of lootas rally, and he pumps all his loota shots, and boyz shots into my dragons, and brings one of them down.
Chaos T4 - I try to charge the bikes with the zombies, but roll terrible, like 3 inches to assault through cover. My oblits land near his shoota boys with gazgul.
Ork 5 - His flyers come back on, and kill my other dragon. He split his biker boss and charges the 2 remaining CSM in the far left squad (the other CSM squad is still trying to get around zombies to shoot at lootas), while the rest of his bikes charge Typhus and about 16 zombies. The Boss takes a wound in overwatch, from a plasma gun, and then takes a pistol to the face, dying before he gets to attack. Typhus loses several zombies, and kills several orks, activating his force weapon. Gazgul declared the charge (he was going to attack with all of the orks, but right before he ended his movement phase I told him I deep-striked my oblits there to lure his orks off the objective, so he seperated Gazgul. Gazgul took some wounds, but killed both oblits.
Chaos 5 - Typhus kills the rest of the bikers, with 2 zombie wounds to spare. Gazgul, caught in the open, takes as much fire-power as I can spare, which enough to do the last wound needed to kill him.
Game ended, Chaos 5 (First blood, slay the warlord, objective), and Orks 3 (objective).
The game was slow until turn 4, because the Ork player plays defensively, and zombies take a long time to cross the long board (especially when they can't run through area terrain), but everything did what it needed to.
Thoughts - Zombies did well. Had the bikes charged right away, I might have lost the zombies before Typhus had a chance to support him. I will probably start him in zombies from now on, probably the first row and then, once it takes too many losses, shift to the second wave (which will be right behind the first). The zombies are a great tar pit against a lot of units, but, according to some quick math hammer, they were only going to last 2 combats against the bikers, which means that the bikes would be free on his turn - not ideal.
The terminators are probably out. 3 with combi meltas cost more than 2 oblits, and have less total wounds, and less fire power.
Typhus.is.a.psyker. I went 4 turns before I remembered this, and started using his powers, which were awesome against the bikers, although I don't know if they made the difference, since the were still obliterating zombies.
I think I am going back to the flamer on the second dragon. The auto cannon was good, and it would have pinned 2 units (it pinned some lootas too), but with 6 oblits and a quad gun, I think I need more anti-troop firepower than anti-air / anti-vehicle.
CSM with mark of nurgle did fine. I have no complaints, except I am probably going to give the rear detachment a longer ranged weapon - like a missile launcher.
Sunday, March 31, 2013
Local Tournament - Game 3
This is the 3rd game of the tournament yesterday. I, of course, used the same list. My opponent was playing Vanilla Marines. He had a drop pod with lysander and 10 sternguard, a unit of assault terminators, led my the Chapter Master (can't remember his name, but the guy with 2 power fists), 3 vindicators, and 3 squads of tacticals.
I won this game by a large margin, primarily because I out-maneuvered him (although almost messed it up on the last turn by charging his unit away from an objective with my cultist, instead of the unit toward objective - had the game gone another turn, I would have had a minor victory instead of major). He dropped the pod and terminators behind my ADL, and swept through my back field, whereas I deep-striked everything with a 2+ save behind his lines.
In this game, my Helbrutes contributed by being roadblocks that he had to assault to get to my troops. They still died without killing anything, but by forcing him to charge them instead of my marines, I bought my marines 2 turns (which left me with an objective I wouldn't have had, and would have lost in 1 more turn).
My terminators and oblits landed behind his lines and took out 2 vindicators, and my autocannon heldrake killed the other with a side shot (I am liking the flexibility of having 1 each weapon on the heldrake). The fact that I was able to take out 3 vindicators in a turn is re-enforcing the fact that the helbrutes are superfluous in this list, and can probably be replaced, maybe with bikes or more terminators.
I already knew I would have a hard-time against terminators, but my plan of staying away from them worked, and I don't know of plasmaguns would have made much difference against stormshields (although, if i hadn't needed to kill the vindicators, I could have dropped plasma cannons on them). The only problem is, you can't stay away from them, if you need to hold an objective, so I might need more tarpitting (thinking more of zombies)
I won this game by a large margin, primarily because I out-maneuvered him (although almost messed it up on the last turn by charging his unit away from an objective with my cultist, instead of the unit toward objective - had the game gone another turn, I would have had a minor victory instead of major). He dropped the pod and terminators behind my ADL, and swept through my back field, whereas I deep-striked everything with a 2+ save behind his lines.
In this game, my Helbrutes contributed by being roadblocks that he had to assault to get to my troops. They still died without killing anything, but by forcing him to charge them instead of my marines, I bought my marines 2 turns (which left me with an objective I wouldn't have had, and would have lost in 1 more turn).
My terminators and oblits landed behind his lines and took out 2 vindicators, and my autocannon heldrake killed the other with a side shot (I am liking the flexibility of having 1 each weapon on the heldrake). The fact that I was able to take out 3 vindicators in a turn is re-enforcing the fact that the helbrutes are superfluous in this list, and can probably be replaced, maybe with bikes or more terminators.
I already knew I would have a hard-time against terminators, but my plan of staying away from them worked, and I don't know of plasmaguns would have made much difference against stormshields (although, if i hadn't needed to kill the vindicators, I could have dropped plasma cannons on them). The only problem is, you can't stay away from them, if you need to hold an objective, so I might need more tarpitting (thinking more of zombies)
Local Tournament - Game 2
This was game 2 of yesterday's tournament. I had the same army as I did in the last post, and my opponent played IG with Space Wolf allies. He had 2 blobs infantry platoons (with a space wolf chaplain in each) - the platoons were naked, no extra, special, or power weapons. He also had an aegis defense line, were he had a unit of grey hunters, 2 platoon heavy weapons squads, and a company command squad with a guy who gives me -1 to reserve rolls, and a master of ordinance. He also had Marbo and a second 2nd Hunter squad. Finally, he had 2 Valkyries (one of was modeled as a viking long ship, on a stormraven base - looked pretty cool, and will look even cooler painted).
Luckily, the first turn was night fighting, because I underestimated his fire power, and had started clustered up (I had deployed my ADL across my side of the board, but when I rolled crusader, I decided that I wanted to try marching across the board with everyone in 12", to benefit from preferred enemy. While it is rules as written, I think it is lame that a blob of IG can be led by a space wolf, and benefit from all of his perks, including preferred enemy, but, since it is an IG unit, my preferred enemy was worthless against him (this is not a bash against the player at all, who is a friend of mine, but rather a complaint about GW rules).
We traded blows, and it was pretty even, even without my dragons for the most part (he had also gotten the warlord trait that effects reserve, so my reserve roll was 5+). My dragons didn't really make a big difference - other than taking out his 2 flyers. I tried to kill his warlord, or his troops on the objective, and I did kill a lot of them, but I forgot that the heavy weapon teams also counted as troops.
My warlord and cultists got into a fight with one of the blobs. He had 3-4 sergeants that he kept feeding my warlord (which kept the combat going a while, but is also the first time I got to roll on the boon chart). I rolled a 1 twice during this combat, including once against his chaplain, but still one the combat and, on the last turn, killed the priest and broke the 2 infantry units (he had also thrown in the platoon command squad, although now that I think about it, I think he only make 1 leadership roll, and he should have rolled 2, so he might have screwed himself there.
Overall, I won by 2.
Thoughts - Again, the Helbrutes didn't pull their weight (and in fact, gave my opponent first blood).
The Heldrakes, while killing a lot of guys, were not really game changing, other than destroying his aircraft, since they didn't wipe out any actual units.
The Warlord and his guys killed a huge blog, and tied it up, and eventually won, so I again, I can't really complain - I wanted to kill it faster, so far this unit had been good for wiping out one unit, and I feel it should be doing more, but maybe my expectations are too high, after all, it took a big threat out of the game. (First Rank, Second Rank fire from 30 guys is a lot of shots - the other blob almost decimated a unit of T5 marines (granted it still took 4 turns, and there were 2 guys left, but had he moved closer, and added rapid fire, it could have gotten ugly).
Since everything except my warlord and cultists are nurgle, and the warlord is basically acting like a tarpit, I am thinking about adding Typhus, and using zombies as the tarpit -just don't want to do 70+ zombies, that's why I don't play orks :). Still zombies are pure tarpit, my Khorn guys are a tarpit that eventually usually wins.
Luckily, the first turn was night fighting, because I underestimated his fire power, and had started clustered up (I had deployed my ADL across my side of the board, but when I rolled crusader, I decided that I wanted to try marching across the board with everyone in 12", to benefit from preferred enemy. While it is rules as written, I think it is lame that a blob of IG can be led by a space wolf, and benefit from all of his perks, including preferred enemy, but, since it is an IG unit, my preferred enemy was worthless against him (this is not a bash against the player at all, who is a friend of mine, but rather a complaint about GW rules).
We traded blows, and it was pretty even, even without my dragons for the most part (he had also gotten the warlord trait that effects reserve, so my reserve roll was 5+). My dragons didn't really make a big difference - other than taking out his 2 flyers. I tried to kill his warlord, or his troops on the objective, and I did kill a lot of them, but I forgot that the heavy weapon teams also counted as troops.
My warlord and cultists got into a fight with one of the blobs. He had 3-4 sergeants that he kept feeding my warlord (which kept the combat going a while, but is also the first time I got to roll on the boon chart). I rolled a 1 twice during this combat, including once against his chaplain, but still one the combat and, on the last turn, killed the priest and broke the 2 infantry units (he had also thrown in the platoon command squad, although now that I think about it, I think he only make 1 leadership roll, and he should have rolled 2, so he might have screwed himself there.
Overall, I won by 2.
Thoughts - Again, the Helbrutes didn't pull their weight (and in fact, gave my opponent first blood).
The Heldrakes, while killing a lot of guys, were not really game changing, other than destroying his aircraft, since they didn't wipe out any actual units.
The Warlord and his guys killed a huge blog, and tied it up, and eventually won, so I again, I can't really complain - I wanted to kill it faster, so far this unit had been good for wiping out one unit, and I feel it should be doing more, but maybe my expectations are too high, after all, it took a big threat out of the game. (First Rank, Second Rank fire from 30 guys is a lot of shots - the other blob almost decimated a unit of T5 marines (granted it still took 4 turns, and there were 2 guys left, but had he moved closer, and added rapid fire, it could have gotten ugly).
Since everything except my warlord and cultists are nurgle, and the warlord is basically acting like a tarpit, I am thinking about adding Typhus, and using zombies as the tarpit -just don't want to do 70+ zombies, that's why I don't play orks :). Still zombies are pure tarpit, my Khorn guys are a tarpit that eventually usually wins.
Local Tournament - Game 1
Played in a local tournament yesterday. Points-wise, I was tied for third, but I had lost a game, and the other 2 third placers hadn't, so one of them got it. Following my own advice, I tried to take a diverse list, with tools to handle everything, without a auto-win gimmick.
My list was:
Chaos Lord - Mark of Khorne, Melta bombs, Sigil of corruption, Power Armour, Axe of Blind Fury, Bolt
Pistol
My list was:
Chaos Lord - Mark of Khorne, Melta bombs, Sigil of corruption, Power Armour, Axe of Blind Fury, Bolt
Pistol
Unit of 3 Chaos Terminators - Mark of Nurgle, (Combi-melta, Powerfist), (Chainfist, Combi-melta),
Terminator Champion (Combi-Melta, Power Axe)
Helbrute - Multi-melta, Power fist with Heavy flamer
Helbrute - Multi-melta, Power fist with Heavy flamer
30 Chaos Cultists - Mark of Khorn, 3x Flamers
10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Nurgle, 1 x Heavy Bolter (I waited so long to make my list and
assemble my Heldrakes that I had to go with what I had)
10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Nurgle, 1 x Heavy Bolter
10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Nurgle,
Heldrake with Baleflamer
Heldrake with Hades Autocannon
2 Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle
2 Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle
Aegis Defense Line with quad-gun
As usual, I am terrible at knowing what the opponent had, and I am least familiar with 'nids, but he had 7 monstrous creatures, and a total of something like 16 psyker powers (all of which were biomancy, so there was endurance and iron arm buffed monsters), and some monster that every shooting phase, causes every unit within 6" to roll 3d6 leadership test, and take ap 2 wounds for every point over your leadership (this cost me a unit of oblits on my turn, as I didn't realize that it worked on my turn as well, so I moved oblits closer to charge)
So turn 1, all he had were the bosses that spawned gaunts, and 2 large units of gaunts, everything else was in reserve. I had infiltrate,and he had the warlord re-deploy, so my Warlord and a unit of his gaunts were in combat pretty quickly. My warlord rolled a 1 for his deamon weapon, so it was not the charge on the slaughter it should have been (and in future turns, he buffed his guys with feel-no-pain, and de-buffed me with -1S and -1T. I still won that fight, just in time for his Warlord (bone saber guy with iron arm, so initiative 8, Str 9, Tough 9) to kill my warlord, break my squad and wipe them. - This was turn 3 (we only got 4 turns); the game was slay the warlord, and, up to this point, I was winning 7 to 3. This combat shot him up to 7 to 6. Then, on turn 4, I shot some stuff, came close to willing 2-3 monsters (all he had left), but with an average of T6 and 4-6 wounds (some of which were then buffed with Iron Arm), I couldn't kill one that turn (I probably could have focused fire, but since he was about to charge all of my units, I was trying to soften them all up for overwatch, or melee kills.
On his turn 4, he assaulted 2 units of marines, 1 unit of oblits, and killed them all, making it 7-9 nids.
Thoughts on the game -
The Helbrutes were about as bad as everyone said. I can see a use for long range Multi-Melta, but I have that with Obliterators. I didn't realize at the time, that Helbrutes don't even get a 5+ daemon save that every other walker in my army has. With no pods, no way to make them outflanking, and no invuln save, I was not impressed. Of all 3 games, this was their chance to shine, because they might have beaten an unbuffed monster in combat, but they couldn't survive the shooting to get there... from 'nids.
Warlord with cultists. They got him there, and he killed stuff, but not as quickly as I would have liked, although in this game, I was not going to win against his warlord no matter what I brought, so it is hard to make that call. The advantage to this, over bikes, is that I was able to use my warlord trait to give them infiltrate.
Everything else did about how I expected, and the heavy-bolter wasn't even a terrible choice, although double plasma guns would have been better (and 50 points more expensive) In fact, more plasma, or autocannon havocs was probably the only thing I could have about this list to help against so many monsters.
Tactics-wise, I should have fallen back through cover and made him chase me a little as I shot, although monsters have move through cover, and all his guys were fleet, but still, a few missed charges might have made the difference, as most of his monsters had at least a few wounds (which is also something I could have done different - I should have focused fire better, but my units were so spread out that they couldn't support each other). This match-up was a tough fight, but I don't think it was un-beatable with what I brought, had I played it better, although it showed a glaring weakness against psyker strong armies (unfortunately not a weakness I can do a lot about).
Terminator Champion (Combi-Melta, Power Axe)
Helbrute - Multi-melta, Power fist with Heavy flamer
Helbrute - Multi-melta, Power fist with Heavy flamer
30 Chaos Cultists - Mark of Khorn, 3x Flamers
10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Nurgle, 1 x Heavy Bolter (I waited so long to make my list and
assemble my Heldrakes that I had to go with what I had)
10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Nurgle, 1 x Heavy Bolter
10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Nurgle,
Heldrake with Baleflamer
Heldrake with Hades Autocannon
2 Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle
2 Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle
Aegis Defense Line with quad-gun
As usual, I am terrible at knowing what the opponent had, and I am least familiar with 'nids, but he had 7 monstrous creatures, and a total of something like 16 psyker powers (all of which were biomancy, so there was endurance and iron arm buffed monsters), and some monster that every shooting phase, causes every unit within 6" to roll 3d6 leadership test, and take ap 2 wounds for every point over your leadership (this cost me a unit of oblits on my turn, as I didn't realize that it worked on my turn as well, so I moved oblits closer to charge)
So turn 1, all he had were the bosses that spawned gaunts, and 2 large units of gaunts, everything else was in reserve. I had infiltrate,and he had the warlord re-deploy, so my Warlord and a unit of his gaunts were in combat pretty quickly. My warlord rolled a 1 for his deamon weapon, so it was not the charge on the slaughter it should have been (and in future turns, he buffed his guys with feel-no-pain, and de-buffed me with -1S and -1T. I still won that fight, just in time for his Warlord (bone saber guy with iron arm, so initiative 8, Str 9, Tough 9) to kill my warlord, break my squad and wipe them. - This was turn 3 (we only got 4 turns); the game was slay the warlord, and, up to this point, I was winning 7 to 3. This combat shot him up to 7 to 6. Then, on turn 4, I shot some stuff, came close to willing 2-3 monsters (all he had left), but with an average of T6 and 4-6 wounds (some of which were then buffed with Iron Arm), I couldn't kill one that turn (I probably could have focused fire, but since he was about to charge all of my units, I was trying to soften them all up for overwatch, or melee kills.
On his turn 4, he assaulted 2 units of marines, 1 unit of oblits, and killed them all, making it 7-9 nids.
Thoughts on the game -
The Helbrutes were about as bad as everyone said. I can see a use for long range Multi-Melta, but I have that with Obliterators. I didn't realize at the time, that Helbrutes don't even get a 5+ daemon save that every other walker in my army has. With no pods, no way to make them outflanking, and no invuln save, I was not impressed. Of all 3 games, this was their chance to shine, because they might have beaten an unbuffed monster in combat, but they couldn't survive the shooting to get there... from 'nids.
Warlord with cultists. They got him there, and he killed stuff, but not as quickly as I would have liked, although in this game, I was not going to win against his warlord no matter what I brought, so it is hard to make that call. The advantage to this, over bikes, is that I was able to use my warlord trait to give them infiltrate.
Everything else did about how I expected, and the heavy-bolter wasn't even a terrible choice, although double plasma guns would have been better (and 50 points more expensive) In fact, more plasma, or autocannon havocs was probably the only thing I could have about this list to help against so many monsters.
Tactics-wise, I should have fallen back through cover and made him chase me a little as I shot, although monsters have move through cover, and all his guys were fleet, but still, a few missed charges might have made the difference, as most of his monsters had at least a few wounds (which is also something I could have done different - I should have focused fire better, but my units were so spread out that they couldn't support each other). This match-up was a tough fight, but I don't think it was un-beatable with what I brought, had I played it better, although it showed a glaring weakness against psyker strong armies (unfortunately not a weakness I can do a lot about).
Thursday, March 28, 2013
Thoughts on list building
I have been having a really hard time coming up with a Chaos list. I don't think that it is because they are a bad army, and they have some awesome units. They also have a few USRs that you can build a list around - preferred enemy and infiltration for example.
Why then, has it been so hard for me to make a list? I think I have the answer. I was cruising some forums and blogs, and someone, in the comments (and I would credit the person if I remembered who, or which blog), said something like, "The problem is that so many people are trying to win the game in the list building phase, rather than playing the game."
I think that this is probably why I am having so much trouble. I think that, instead of playing some things that are cool, and giving myself the tools to face different enemies, I was trying to make an all-comers list that won the game before even playing - I don't know how I got to there, probably because I used to play games like Magic the Gathering - although even in 40K there have been games where I had lost before even starting the game.
I am not saying that this made the game not fun for me, or that I am so competitive that I am a jerk to play against (these are the first two questions I asked myself after realizing what I was doing), but it has created a lot of stress when trying to come with lists. From now on (or at least for a little while), I am going to try to focus less on the perfect list, and instead just make sure that my list is not auto-lose against certain armies.
The criteria I am using, which is from a blog that I will cite if I can find it again,is that my army must have a plan for:
AV 12 flyers
50 Man blob (with ATSKNF)
40 MeQ
3-5 Rhino / Chimera rush
Deep Striking (DA and Daemons)
Invulnerable save
Aegis Defense line
4 Durable Scoring Units
monsters / large group pf multi-wounds.
Like I said, this is not my list, and there are some things that I don't know if they need their own sections, for example Invuln save (Stormshields) and ADL would probably both be delt with by volume of fire, and I don't know if I'll always need 4 scoring units - but this is a good place to start. I will be able to test this (if my army comes in from ebay), because there is a tournament Saturday at the Local Gaming Store.
Why then, has it been so hard for me to make a list? I think I have the answer. I was cruising some forums and blogs, and someone, in the comments (and I would credit the person if I remembered who, or which blog), said something like, "The problem is that so many people are trying to win the game in the list building phase, rather than playing the game."
I think that this is probably why I am having so much trouble. I think that, instead of playing some things that are cool, and giving myself the tools to face different enemies, I was trying to make an all-comers list that won the game before even playing - I don't know how I got to there, probably because I used to play games like Magic the Gathering - although even in 40K there have been games where I had lost before even starting the game.
I am not saying that this made the game not fun for me, or that I am so competitive that I am a jerk to play against (these are the first two questions I asked myself after realizing what I was doing), but it has created a lot of stress when trying to come with lists. From now on (or at least for a little while), I am going to try to focus less on the perfect list, and instead just make sure that my list is not auto-lose against certain armies.
The criteria I am using, which is from a blog that I will cite if I can find it again,is that my army must have a plan for:
AV 12 flyers
50 Man blob (with ATSKNF)
40 MeQ
3-5 Rhino / Chimera rush
Deep Striking (DA and Daemons)
Invulnerable save
Aegis Defense line
4 Durable Scoring Units
monsters / large group pf multi-wounds.
Like I said, this is not my list, and there are some things that I don't know if they need their own sections, for example Invuln save (Stormshields) and ADL would probably both be delt with by volume of fire, and I don't know if I'll always need 4 scoring units - but this is a good place to start. I will be able to test this (if my army comes in from ebay), because there is a tournament Saturday at the Local Gaming Store.
Thursday, March 21, 2013
Thoughts on the Heldrake
I am having a really hard time putting together a good chaos list. I think that at least part of it is because I might be doing it wrong with the Heldrake. I have been tabled by 1 Heldrake, and it may have skewed my perception, and after facing it a few times, and running one a few times, I still think my perception is skewed from that one time I got slaughtered.
My most recent games showed me that positioning further back can stop the vector strike, and your opponent bringing his air on to the opposite side of the board from the rest of his army means you can vector strike is air OR flame his guys.
I think it is obvious by now that I am assuming that one is always taking the Baleflamer with a drake, because it is just too awesome not to. I believe that this is why I am having so much trouble coming up with a list that I like, I am assuming that the Heldrake has to have a baleflamer to be worth the points, so I am taking the Heldrake as my anti-infantry, and then I am spending too many points trying to cover anti-air. The issue is that Chaos has ALOT of was to kill stuff on the ground, but nothing nearly as efficient as the Heldrake for killing things in the air, and trying to force something else into the anti-air role is leaving me unhappy, because I end up with a list that doesn't have enough anti-troop OR anti-air.
So I am going to try to make some more lists, with auto-cannons on the drakes. If I take 3, then maybe the baleflamer on one, but I am starting to think that the baleflamer is a trap. It looks great on paper, and works very well the first time you enemy faces it, but it is not the unstoppable killing machine that you want it to be...
My most recent games showed me that positioning further back can stop the vector strike, and your opponent bringing his air on to the opposite side of the board from the rest of his army means you can vector strike is air OR flame his guys.
I think it is obvious by now that I am assuming that one is always taking the Baleflamer with a drake, because it is just too awesome not to. I believe that this is why I am having so much trouble coming up with a list that I like, I am assuming that the Heldrake has to have a baleflamer to be worth the points, so I am taking the Heldrake as my anti-infantry, and then I am spending too many points trying to cover anti-air. The issue is that Chaos has ALOT of was to kill stuff on the ground, but nothing nearly as efficient as the Heldrake for killing things in the air, and trying to force something else into the anti-air role is leaving me unhappy, because I end up with a list that doesn't have enough anti-troop OR anti-air.
So I am going to try to make some more lists, with auto-cannons on the drakes. If I take 3, then maybe the baleflamer on one, but I am starting to think that the baleflamer is a trap. It looks great on paper, and works very well the first time you enemy faces it, but it is not the unstoppable killing machine that you want it to be...
Sunday, March 17, 2013
Second game with Chaos
This was played the same day as the first post (and the same player). I used the same army as the first game with chaos. I was playing purge the alien against orks. My opponent had Gaz'gul and a mob of shoota' boys (I think 30), 3 units of 14 lootas, a unit of nob bikers with a warboss, and 3 ork fighter planes.
Again, I was using proxies, but this game was pretty straight forward, so I'll do it more in a turn by turn analysis.
Turn 1 - he went first, it was night fighting - it was dawn of war an we deployed in opposite corners, so nothing was in range. I moved my demon prince into cover, close enough that I could probably assault his bikers next turn, but where I had a 2+ cover save (because of mark of nurgle) from his lootas.
Opponent Turn 2 - His flyers came in, and all though it took all 3 of them, they did manage to kill my demon prince, meaning I was down 3 points right away (1 for unit, 1 for first blood, and 1 for slay the warlord). His bikers pulled back, so I was going to have to go after him.
Chaos Turn 2 - My flyers came on. He had positioned his orks so that I could not vector strike them (because there was no where to land). I couldn't vector strike the ork flyers, because they were on the other side of the board, and striking them meant that I would lose at least two turns of flaming (plus I think they were also too far back). I flamed his bikers with all three heldrakes, and killed 1 or 2. I deep striked my Oblits, 1 unit scattered off the table, and went back into reserve, but the other 2 landed behind his lines. The unit of 3 oblits assault cannoned the closest lootas and broke them. The other unit killed some of the mob of boyz. I started moving my rhinos to get my troops into range to help, but it would have taken them until turn 7 to get into melee with the orks (we didn't get a 7th turn), and it would have taken until turn 9 for my 2 units of marines to be killed by what was left of his ork mob, gaz'gul, and nob with powerfist)
Turn 3 - I think he forgets to roll for his lootas, so see if they stay or if they run off the board, but it's ok, because he didn't shoot them either. His bikes charge both units of my oblits (I use the heavy flamers, and kill 1-2 - I got 11 hits with wall of flame). We tie in combat, doing 3 wounds each, but I lost 2 guys, and he only lost 1). He shot at my flyers, but I made a lot of saves, took some hits, but only 1 of them went down - it took hits from 2 flyers and 2 units of lootas).
Chaos turn 3 - I vector strike some boys with my last 2 dragons, and then flame them. We're not sure how vector strike works, as far was where are the casualties assigned, so I let him pick, and he put them all on gaz' gul, who absorbed all but one of them on his 2+ save. My oblits fail their reserve roll, and my other 2 units of oblits get wiped out, killing another bike or two (leaving him with a war boss and a nob biker, each with one wound). One of my heldrakes flame a unit of lootas, breaking them and causing them to run off the board, and the other kills 3 more lootas from the group already falling back, so they can' rally without double 1's.
Enemy turn 4 - He declares Waaah!, letting his flyers to fire twice each. Between that and the lootas, he finishes off both of my remaining heldrakes. His bikers pop one of the Rhinos in melee. His lootas run off the board, leaving him with one unit at full strength.
Chaos turn 4. I deepstrike my oblits near his lootas, and assault cannon them, killing 7 of them, but they pass their leadership. I unload all of the marines from their rhinos, and finish off the bikers with rapid fire.
Enemy turn 5. He fires his whole army at the oblits, and kills one of them. He tries to assault the other, but it is through cover, and I wall of flame the closest guy, so he doesn't make it.
Chaos Turn 5. I put everything back in the rhinos and move toward his boyz, although even if they get there, I have already lost, because I had several more kill points to give up than he did, and I lost the first two optional points. My oblit moves towards the lootas, kills 2, and then charges...but fails because I only got 3" charge, and I had killed the closest 2.
Turn 6. Between his boyz and his lootas, he killed my last oblit. His fighers didn't do anything, because they had to turn to stay on the board, and didn't have any targets.
Chaos turn 6. I moved up the rhinos, and unloaded everything, and was able to shoot some of the boyz, but was too far out of range to charge. There was no turn 7.
Thoughts / lessons learned:
1. The demon prince needs more fast stuff to work well. In my first game, I held him back until my dragons came out, so that when my enemy's fliers came on, there was a saturation of targets. This game, my opponent went first, and when his fliers came on, my prince was easily their best target, and they killed him, which put me way behind from the start. While he did awesome the first game, I am thinking that his place is in a fast army, where there are a lot of turn 2 threats right away (maybe 2 princes and bike unit).
2. Again, the dragons, while doing great for their points (I really don't see a more efficient way to spend 170 points), they cannot carry the army alone, and they need anti-air support, because in the enemy has more than 1 flyer, the dragons are going to start dropping, and since 3 of them, point-wise, uses up most of your allotted anti-troop allowance, you need them to survive.
3. While there might be a time to drop oblits behind to wipe out a key target, they have pretty good range, and probably should kill stuff from a distance (I know the internet says they are at their best withing 24", which is true, they are also much easier to kill with volume of fire inside 24" (of course, this would also be different if one was playing a faster, turn 2 army - which I am having trouble making for chaos)
Again, I was using proxies, but this game was pretty straight forward, so I'll do it more in a turn by turn analysis.
Turn 1 - he went first, it was night fighting - it was dawn of war an we deployed in opposite corners, so nothing was in range. I moved my demon prince into cover, close enough that I could probably assault his bikers next turn, but where I had a 2+ cover save (because of mark of nurgle) from his lootas.
Opponent Turn 2 - His flyers came in, and all though it took all 3 of them, they did manage to kill my demon prince, meaning I was down 3 points right away (1 for unit, 1 for first blood, and 1 for slay the warlord). His bikers pulled back, so I was going to have to go after him.
Chaos Turn 2 - My flyers came on. He had positioned his orks so that I could not vector strike them (because there was no where to land). I couldn't vector strike the ork flyers, because they were on the other side of the board, and striking them meant that I would lose at least two turns of flaming (plus I think they were also too far back). I flamed his bikers with all three heldrakes, and killed 1 or 2. I deep striked my Oblits, 1 unit scattered off the table, and went back into reserve, but the other 2 landed behind his lines. The unit of 3 oblits assault cannoned the closest lootas and broke them. The other unit killed some of the mob of boyz. I started moving my rhinos to get my troops into range to help, but it would have taken them until turn 7 to get into melee with the orks (we didn't get a 7th turn), and it would have taken until turn 9 for my 2 units of marines to be killed by what was left of his ork mob, gaz'gul, and nob with powerfist)
Turn 3 - I think he forgets to roll for his lootas, so see if they stay or if they run off the board, but it's ok, because he didn't shoot them either. His bikes charge both units of my oblits (I use the heavy flamers, and kill 1-2 - I got 11 hits with wall of flame). We tie in combat, doing 3 wounds each, but I lost 2 guys, and he only lost 1). He shot at my flyers, but I made a lot of saves, took some hits, but only 1 of them went down - it took hits from 2 flyers and 2 units of lootas).
Chaos turn 3 - I vector strike some boys with my last 2 dragons, and then flame them. We're not sure how vector strike works, as far was where are the casualties assigned, so I let him pick, and he put them all on gaz' gul, who absorbed all but one of them on his 2+ save. My oblits fail their reserve roll, and my other 2 units of oblits get wiped out, killing another bike or two (leaving him with a war boss and a nob biker, each with one wound). One of my heldrakes flame a unit of lootas, breaking them and causing them to run off the board, and the other kills 3 more lootas from the group already falling back, so they can' rally without double 1's.
Enemy turn 4 - He declares Waaah!, letting his flyers to fire twice each. Between that and the lootas, he finishes off both of my remaining heldrakes. His bikers pop one of the Rhinos in melee. His lootas run off the board, leaving him with one unit at full strength.
Chaos turn 4. I deepstrike my oblits near his lootas, and assault cannon them, killing 7 of them, but they pass their leadership. I unload all of the marines from their rhinos, and finish off the bikers with rapid fire.
Enemy turn 5. He fires his whole army at the oblits, and kills one of them. He tries to assault the other, but it is through cover, and I wall of flame the closest guy, so he doesn't make it.
Chaos Turn 5. I put everything back in the rhinos and move toward his boyz, although even if they get there, I have already lost, because I had several more kill points to give up than he did, and I lost the first two optional points. My oblit moves towards the lootas, kills 2, and then charges...but fails because I only got 3" charge, and I had killed the closest 2.
Turn 6. Between his boyz and his lootas, he killed my last oblit. His fighers didn't do anything, because they had to turn to stay on the board, and didn't have any targets.
Chaos turn 6. I moved up the rhinos, and unloaded everything, and was able to shoot some of the boyz, but was too far out of range to charge. There was no turn 7.
Thoughts / lessons learned:
1. The demon prince needs more fast stuff to work well. In my first game, I held him back until my dragons came out, so that when my enemy's fliers came on, there was a saturation of targets. This game, my opponent went first, and when his fliers came on, my prince was easily their best target, and they killed him, which put me way behind from the start. While he did awesome the first game, I am thinking that his place is in a fast army, where there are a lot of turn 2 threats right away (maybe 2 princes and bike unit).
2. Again, the dragons, while doing great for their points (I really don't see a more efficient way to spend 170 points), they cannot carry the army alone, and they need anti-air support, because in the enemy has more than 1 flyer, the dragons are going to start dropping, and since 3 of them, point-wise, uses up most of your allotted anti-troop allowance, you need them to survive.
3. While there might be a time to drop oblits behind to wipe out a key target, they have pretty good range, and probably should kill stuff from a distance (I know the internet says they are at their best withing 24", which is true, they are also much easier to kill with volume of fire inside 24" (of course, this would also be different if one was playing a faster, turn 2 army - which I am having trouble making for chaos)
First Game with CSM
So, I was worried about my list, with 3 Heldrakes, being over the top. The was not the case today - I lost 2 games today, 1 to Necrons and 1 to Orks.
In the Necron game, even though I was making an All Comers List (ACL), I knew that I would be playing his Necron army, so I at least wanted to make sure that I had enough to cover the threats I knew he would bring.
His list - and I didn't get it from him, was Immotek and another Lord, 2 Courts (each one had a guy that allows rerolls, a guy with the staff that is Str 8, AP 1, targets leadership, and one other guy (with Str 8, AP 3 staff). There were split into the different units, the guys with the AP1 Flamer staffs each joined a unit of death-marks. He had 2 Heavy Flyers (with the Str 10, AP 1 beam) {I have the codex, I just don't want to look it up, plus my brother - who I want to help with this blog, wouldn't know the equipment by its name, so I'm putting why it is dangerous instead.}
He also has 2 units of death-marks (in transports)
3 units of Immortals (1 has a flyer, but it is not used as a transport)
I had Aegis Defense Line (ADL) with Comms relay
a unit of cultists on the relay, inside the ADL, along with 3 obliterators with Mark of Nurgle
I had a deamon prince of Nurgle as an hq
3 units of CSM in Rhinos
2 squads of 2 Oblits
3 heldrakes
My thinking was that the Heldrakes would be the anti-personnel (ignoring armor and cover), so I would just need to worry about being able to get people out of their vehicles (deep-striking oblits seemed like a good answer, and might have been against different armies.
Anyway, Immotek managed to keep this game in the dark all the way through turn 5, and his lighting had some good rolls from time to time (finishing off a Heldrake)
I proxied everything, so I have no pictures, so this isn't so much a battle report as it is lessons learned.
1. 3 Heldrakes do not carry an army, despite what the internet says. If your opponent has anti-air, or flyers of his own, the heldrakes will go down without some anti air support.
2. Vector strike is not reliable anti-air, especially if the enemy has more than one flyer (when I was building my list, I was imagining vector striking, then flaming the back (pretty sure I got this idea from the forums), but once the game started, I realized that flamers can't target flyers, even if coming from another flyer).
3. Oblits with mark of nurgle are pretty good, but but dropping them into enemy deployment zone to assassinate an enemy heavy support is an expensive suicide mission. While that was my plan, to drop into rear and kill vehicles or other threats, so that my dragon could do their thing, they generally died the turn they landed - even if they killed a vehicle, it's trading one unit for another, and mine is probably more expensive (although I can see where this could be useful).
4. Having 3 units of nine - 10 guys in a Rhino with no heavy weapon (waiting to strike out on turn 4 to score), means that I am playing with 400-600 less points for 2/3 of the game. (Granted, this strategy would have won me the game had the game not gone to turn 7, or had it been any mission other than the scouring).
5. My demon prince did pretty well, he soaked a lot of shots, and wiped out 1 unit and gave me line breaker. He might have won be the game, but, since it was close, I flew him away on turn 5, not wanting to give enemy slay-the-warlord, which is the problem with having a warlord that is a one man killing machine - if you use him like you are supposed to (which aggressively, since you pumped so many points into making him a melee killing machine), you are practically giving your opponent slay the warlord. I think I am going to save my killing machine characters for when I have two HQ, so that the support character can be the warlord.
In the Necron game, even though I was making an All Comers List (ACL), I knew that I would be playing his Necron army, so I at least wanted to make sure that I had enough to cover the threats I knew he would bring.
His list - and I didn't get it from him, was Immotek and another Lord, 2 Courts (each one had a guy that allows rerolls, a guy with the staff that is Str 8, AP 1, targets leadership, and one other guy (with Str 8, AP 3 staff). There were split into the different units, the guys with the AP1 Flamer staffs each joined a unit of death-marks. He had 2 Heavy Flyers (with the Str 10, AP 1 beam) {I have the codex, I just don't want to look it up, plus my brother - who I want to help with this blog, wouldn't know the equipment by its name, so I'm putting why it is dangerous instead.}
He also has 2 units of death-marks (in transports)
3 units of Immortals (1 has a flyer, but it is not used as a transport)
I had Aegis Defense Line (ADL) with Comms relay
a unit of cultists on the relay, inside the ADL, along with 3 obliterators with Mark of Nurgle
I had a deamon prince of Nurgle as an hq
3 units of CSM in Rhinos
2 squads of 2 Oblits
3 heldrakes
My thinking was that the Heldrakes would be the anti-personnel (ignoring armor and cover), so I would just need to worry about being able to get people out of their vehicles (deep-striking oblits seemed like a good answer, and might have been against different armies.
Anyway, Immotek managed to keep this game in the dark all the way through turn 5, and his lighting had some good rolls from time to time (finishing off a Heldrake)
I proxied everything, so I have no pictures, so this isn't so much a battle report as it is lessons learned.
1. 3 Heldrakes do not carry an army, despite what the internet says. If your opponent has anti-air, or flyers of his own, the heldrakes will go down without some anti air support.
2. Vector strike is not reliable anti-air, especially if the enemy has more than one flyer (when I was building my list, I was imagining vector striking, then flaming the back (pretty sure I got this idea from the forums), but once the game started, I realized that flamers can't target flyers, even if coming from another flyer).
3. Oblits with mark of nurgle are pretty good, but but dropping them into enemy deployment zone to assassinate an enemy heavy support is an expensive suicide mission. While that was my plan, to drop into rear and kill vehicles or other threats, so that my dragon could do their thing, they generally died the turn they landed - even if they killed a vehicle, it's trading one unit for another, and mine is probably more expensive (although I can see where this could be useful).
4. Having 3 units of nine - 10 guys in a Rhino with no heavy weapon (waiting to strike out on turn 4 to score), means that I am playing with 400-600 less points for 2/3 of the game. (Granted, this strategy would have won me the game had the game not gone to turn 7, or had it been any mission other than the scouring).
5. My demon prince did pretty well, he soaked a lot of shots, and wiped out 1 unit and gave me line breaker. He might have won be the game, but, since it was close, I flew him away on turn 5, not wanting to give enemy slay-the-warlord, which is the problem with having a warlord that is a one man killing machine - if you use him like you are supposed to (which aggressively, since you pumped so many points into making him a melee killing machine), you are practically giving your opponent slay the warlord. I think I am going to save my killing machine characters for when I have two HQ, so that the support character can be the warlord.
Thursday, March 7, 2013
Chaos
I said that I would be expanding my list to cover chaos, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. Now that both the CSM and the Chaos Daemon book are out, I plan on trying some chaos stuff out. I even traded my necrons in for store credit at the local gaming store, to get things started. There probably won't be pictures for a while, because I plan on proxying things a few games before buying hordes of stuff.
I am torn between daemons and CSM, and will probably look at hybrids. I have spent some time reading both books, trying to come up with different single mark lists. While this will be fluffy, I don't think that the books are necessarily balanced this way (for example, only Khorne and Nurgle have a way to assault into cover without going at initiative 1). I will probably do a little bit of both (mixed and mono lists).
I am probably going to wait to review some units until I have actually used them in combat, but we'll see.
I have also toyed with the idea of using my Blood Angels as a fallen chapter (as described in the CSM book), and this would work because most of them are just primed red and all have different types of shoulder pads (I got most of them from multiple ebay lots, and didn't spend a lot of time "fixing them"). While this would be easy, realistic, and maybe a cool project, I am holding off right now, because I am not sure I want to abandon having some loyalists marines, and because I actually like the chaos models - but it may be something I do in the future.
I am torn between daemons and CSM, and will probably look at hybrids. I have spent some time reading both books, trying to come up with different single mark lists. While this will be fluffy, I don't think that the books are necessarily balanced this way (for example, only Khorne and Nurgle have a way to assault into cover without going at initiative 1). I will probably do a little bit of both (mixed and mono lists).
I am probably going to wait to review some units until I have actually used them in combat, but we'll see.
I have also toyed with the idea of using my Blood Angels as a fallen chapter (as described in the CSM book), and this would work because most of them are just primed red and all have different types of shoulder pads (I got most of them from multiple ebay lots, and didn't spend a lot of time "fixing them"). While this would be easy, realistic, and maybe a cool project, I am holding off right now, because I am not sure I want to abandon having some loyalists marines, and because I actually like the chaos models - but it may be something I do in the future.
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